Should Power Source have greater meaning?

[MatthewJHanson]

I agree. I think monster powers should have power sources. I'd also like to see more interactions with the power sources and other things. Maybe something that gives you a +2 bonus to defenses against the arcane power sources or something.

 

[KidSnide]

Another thought I had, after reading one too many posts about why some people don't like healing surges, is to tie the hit point recovery mechanic to the power source. Instead of having a common "second wind", the hit point recovery action is different for each power source, and "healing surges" would be the number of times per day that action can be used.

For example, the Divine Power source could have cure personal wounds, and the effect of using that power would be actual hit point recovery. The Martial power source could have adrenaline surge, and instead of recovering hit points...

I'm not sure I have any strong feelings on the details of this proposal, but I think it draws attention to the greater point that the power sources could have more shared mechanics. Channel Divinity is a good (albeit, not especially interest) example of this, as is the wilderness knacks shared by the Essentials ranger and druid classes. (I bet every primal class would have wilderness knacks if they were invented sooner.) The fighting style feats is a nod in the right direction, but don't really do it for me. In a way, some of the weapon feats are closer to the right direction.

Shared power pools would go a long way in the right direction. But I think power source should also share some common mechanics.

For example, maybe the martial power source is marked by using stances and tricks instead of at-will powers. And maybe Daily powers are mostly replaced by constant bonuses, a small number of big-hits, some special stances, and "tactics" - daily powers with an extra benefit if initiated before the encounter begins (e.g. a warlord-style strategy that can either be explained ahead of time, or improvised mid-battle). Healing in the martial power source might also focus on providing efficient ways to turn surges into temp hp (per FireLance's suggestion), and only allow true "healing" when there is time to bandage wounds.

Considering the divine power source, there might be a heavy emphasis on divine spheres of influence. Maybe certain spheres (which could be associated with deities 2e/3e-style), provides the same powers to every divine class that uses the sphere? That way a paladin of Kord and a cleric of Kord would have more in common than a single feat.

You could imagine other examples. Maybe the arcane power source is marked by having more daily powers than usual? Maybe every arcane class is at least a little controller-y (that's already kind of true now)? A better answer is probably that every divine power is assigned to one of the eight schools, and different classes get access to different schools.

Also, I really wish rituals were explicitly divided by power source and not by skill. Skill is a lame proxy for power source.

-KS

 

[Tony Vargas]

Shared power pools would go a long way in the right direction. But I think power source should also share some common mechanics.

They already do (or did). There are no Martial Implement powers, for instance, and, in the PH, virtually no arcane weapon powers. Divine Implement powers are likely to be a holy symbol. Divine tends toward radiant, Primal towards 'elemental' keywords, Psionic toward psychic, Arcane towards force (and, really, a vast vareity), and Martial towards, again, weapons.

But, you could embrace and deepen those distinctions, as long as you don't cross the line and start gimping or overpowering one source or another.

For example, maybe the martial power source is marked by using stances and tricks instead of at-will powers. And maybe Daily powers are mostly replaced by constant bonuses, a small number of big-hits, some special stances, and "tactics"

A perfect example of crossing that line.

You could imagine other examples. Maybe the arcane power source is marked by having more daily powers than usual?

Another fine example.


Really, you're not talking about refining or expanding the use of Sources, you're talking about returning to the imbalances and stereotypes of prior editions.

Also, I really wish rituals were explicitly divided by power source and not by skill. Skill is a lame proxy for power source.

It'd be very easy for a party to end up with no Divine caster, for instance, and thus unable to Raise anyone, or no Arcane caster and thus unable to restore a Rust-monstered magic item. Leaving rituals open is a better policy - they're not important often enough to be character-defining, but when they matter they matter to the whole party, and they are an investment.

 

[S'mon]

As DM, I like it that I can say "I'd like mostly Martial PCs" or "Primal PCs aren't a good fit for this campaign" - the sources serve a useful metagame role. In-play, not so much.

 

[delericho]

So, my question is, should power sources have greater meaning within the system?

Probably. Plus, they should probably also reduce the number of sources: Martial, Arcane, Divine, Psionic, Primal, and Artifice should be enough.

 

[Zaphling]

I'd agree on reassiging some classes to different power sources, but really I'd leave the ranger as martial; Rangers very rarely actually cast spells or otherwise used the more magical elements (other than the animal companions that were more hinderance than help) of the class in earlier editions in my experience.

Really, I think I'd kill off the primal power source and shift both monks and druids to divine. Monk are often tied to D&D religions despite class features modeled off of martial arts film characters, while druids were divine casters in every pre-4e version of D&D. That lets you fill out the grid for divine with traditional D&D classes (monk/striker, paladin/defender, cleric/leader, druid/controller).

I strongly disagree with druids becoming divine. They were a fluff problem to 3e because they were a pseudo-divine character. They never had their own niche. Primal is their niche and their turf.

 

[Zaphling]

Probably. Plus, they should probably also reduce the number of sources: Martial, Arcane, Divine, Psionic, Primal, and Artifice should be enough.

Artifice? What does that do?

 

[Zaphling]

I think the reason they created PSs is for the sole reason of fluff. Game-wise, they don't do a thing.

The down side was you can't create effects that specifically targets power sources. For example, you wanted to create a magehunter character. He should have powers and features that combat mages which are Arcane characters. They should have powers like this:

Anti-arcane Shield: Whenever an attack hits you with an Arcane keyword, the damage is halved.

Magebane: Every time you damage an enemy that has an arcane keyword, you deal 1/2 level extra damage.

Those are good example, but monsters don't have power sources, even their attacks. So if you want to create a magehunter character, you'll be doing somewhat like this:

Anti-arcane Shield: Whenever an attack hits you with a fire, cold, acid, lightning, thunder, force, etc. keyword, the damage is halved. (Which makes the wording very long).

Magebane: Not applicable due to complication.

 

[delericho]

Artifice? What does that do?

At the moment, it doesn't exist.

What it should do is cover the Alchemist, the Eberron-style Artificer, and the steampunk-style Mad Scientist. Basically, it should cover any character who gets their power primarily from items, rather than inherent skill/magic/whatever. Basically, Iron Man.

The big advantage of making this a power source, though, comes when dealing with signature items, Weapons of Legacy, items that auto-level with the character, or whatever you want to call them. In 3e, and at present, these are a bit of a hack. With an Artifice power source, though, they become trivial - just a matter of multi-class feats.

 

[Zaphling]

At the moment, it doesn't exist.

What it should do is cover the Alchemist, the Eberron-style Artificer, and the steampunk-style Mad Scientist. Basically, it should cover any character who gets their power primarily from items, rather than inherent skill/magic/whatever. Basically, Iron Man.

The big advantage of making this a power source, though, comes when dealing with signature items, Weapons of Legacy, items that auto-level with the character, or whatever you want to call them. In 3e, and at present, these are a bit of a hack. With an Artifice power source, though, they become trivial - just a matter of multi-class feats.

artifice can't be called a power source. for example, i recently homebrewed my own alchemist class, I used martial since basically alchemy is the product of studying, which is a martial thing. You study to create effects, or magical effects, without the use of magic at all, although the powers have pseudo-magical effects.

if you want an alchemist like in Full Metal, that power source is Arcane, for the obvious reasons that the anime's 'alchemist' is much the same as the anime Fairy Tale's 'wizards'.

mad scientists and engineers can just be martial, assuming without magical help, since they are, again, a product of studying. They can just be one class in the martial power source.

Martial power source as defined by the PHB is by means of physical effort and discipline. This includes mental effort since you need discipline to master alchemy and engineering.

Mad Scientist can be a theme or paragon path.