Should Prestige Classes Advance Spellcasting?

[Wraith-Hunter]

My favorite example of this is the Mindbender; one level is so good you figure that there has to be a typographical error. Ten levels is so bad you wonder if it would ever be played. It's a great PrC for one level dips and nothing else.

Your comments on the Sorcerer are well taken and the Rapid Metamagic from PhB2 pretty much buried any reason to put 20 levels into sorcerer unless you have an unusal build that uses all feats and skill po0ints and, by accident, doesn't qualify for anything else.

But even a class like the Abjurant Champion is a bit strong. I see many players take Combat Casting if they start at level 1. If you are an elf, Sorcerer 10/Abjurant Champion 5 is strictly better (at every level) than Sorcerer 15. By so much that it is not funny (BAB, hit points, saves and abilities are all increased).

But, you are correct. A class like the Beguiler or the Duskblade is much harder to prestige class.

Both good examples. In the case of the sorcerer the idea of spontaneous casting was so new and believed to be SO powerfull that that was the justification for giving the sorcerer nothing else. That and the existing PrC's were more geard towards wizards and the sorcerer one dragon disciple didn't get any boost to spell casting. I think it took some time in play with sorcerers to see that spontaneous casting is good but not THAT good. That and the sheer number of PrC's means that nobody in their right mind will take sorcerer 20. Unless you are writing an NPC for WotC that is, but then hey I'd just be happy if they followed the rules of the game at that point (see the starting packages in PHBII).

Really Monte Cook hit the nail almost perfectly. The only changes I would make is add some high level abilities to the Sorc to make getting there worth it and some bonus heratige type feats (these came after his sorc. class though I think). That and just use the standard wizard/sorc spell list his is too much of a pain.

The Abjurant champion is really really good. Combat Casting is not the best feat but usefull. A d10 hit dice is a bit much though and wizards should really proof read things, the class obviously thiks mage armor is an abjuration spell. If they are going back to 2e dual school spells it should probably be abjuration/conjuration.

I think a d6 hit die for the class would be fine.

PrC's are also getting more focused and getting rid of requireing pointless feats. You can tell and early PrC from a later one but feat pre-reqs. Earlier ones generally have you take totally useless timmy feats to get into as a cost. (dumb IMHO). Newer ones are generally shorter 5 levels vs 10 and requires feats that fit the theme, and in some case even have a focus for the class.

I really think the next version/revision of the rules will redesign some of the base classes so that there is reason to stay with them and you will give up something GOOD to PrC. I also think characters will get more feats, and PrC's will be more focused and require feats that are generally ok and at least make sense.

In regards to multi-classing in 1/2e I played kind of a hybrid 1/2e (I was a kid and didn't really understand the differances in versions. (I think I hade a 2e PHB and a 1e DMG Random dungeons rule!). After HS I played alot of 2e and 2e Players Options (talk about broken!!). I played lots of Fighter/Mages. But multi-classing was MUCH different. Had to be very specific and by race and such. 3e Multiclassing is not even in the same leauge.

When 3e came out, still being used to 2e, I would have NEVER allowed multiple PrC's and fround upon lots of multiclasses for a level or 2. Now I have fully embraced multi-classing as it is often the only way to build a concept. I usually come up with a concept then figure out how to build it, rather than try to stick to an archtype. Options not restrictions. I look at classes now even PrCs more like skills and feats than as classes in the old sense, just a way to build in the abilities to get your concept.

Duskblade is a great class. I personally don't like the lack of flexibility in the spells, just a substitution for fighter feats to damage an enemy, and the lack of any utility. But with the right feats and maybe the ability to get a few spells from outside the list it would be perect. For a straight up Fighter/Mage who is not interested in battlefield control / utility then it is perfect. Really should be called the bladesinger because that is what it is. It is a great example of how a class should be built, and I think is a preview of things to come. I really can't think of any PrC's that I would think are a no brainer for the class. The base class is really good at being a fighter/mage. And to PrC you have to make some tough choices.

ETA: The rapid metamagic is great. want to keep a sorc in sorc all the time? Let a sorc keep the familiar or swap out for a feat. Give rapid metamagic 1 a day @3rd and add one use every so often where at 15 or so they can do it all the time. At 16 let the cost for metamagic drop 1 level -NOT NEGATIVE LEVELS- and Not stacking (apply 3 metamagic feats and get a 1 level reduction total.) at say 17th or so (about the same level as you would get for incantrix). Use 4 skill points and montes skill list and you will see much fewer PrC'd sorcerers.

 

[green slime]

See PHB II. Weapon Mastery, Weapon Supremacy, Bounding Assault, there are plenty of reasons to remain a Fighter. Moreover it does not take alot of feats to be decent at melee. Power Attack, 2 handed Weapon, + Improved Critical are really all you need.

Even if you were limited to just PHB feats, you could easily have those 3 feats by 8th level, and be working on the Archery feat chain as well, which is extremely feat intensive. It may not seem sexy, but a smartly built Fighter with the Attitude of "The right tool for the right job", is applicable, and powerful in almost all circumstances....except for maybe a battle of wits.

And there are even more reasons not to stay in the fighter class: dead levels are extremely boring for a player, and the pure fighter gets more of those than any other class (fighters gain +1 BAB, +1d10 and +2 skill points and nothing else on these levels: 5th, 7th, 11th, 13th, 17th, & 19th). 6 levels of 20, or 30%, are just a waste of space on a character sheet. Pure spell casters, on the other hand never get dead levels, because they always gain new toys.

 

[Seeten]

Dread Necromancer is impossible to leave, even for a 1 level dip. Any movement delays your progress to Lich into epic levels.

 

[Votan]

Duskblade is a great class. I personally don't like the lack of flexibility in the spells, just a substitution for fighter feats to damage an enemy, and the lack of any utility. But with the right feats and maybe the ability to get a few spells from outside the list it would be perect. For a straight up Fighter/Mage who is not interested in battlefield control / utility then it is perfect. Really should be called the bladesinger because that is what it is. It is a great example of how a class should be built, and I think is a preview of things to come. I really can't think of any PrC's that I would think are a no brainer for the class. The base class is really good at being a fighter/mage. And to PrC you have to make some tough choices.

I think that the fun thing would be to have some sort of secondary list that you cna pick to have each Duskblade a little different (kind of like a different school or clan).

For example, a mbility package that has:

1. Long Strider
2. Spider Climb
3. Fly
4. Dimension Door
5. Teleport

Would be a nice addition. Another one could have melee enhancement spells like:

1. Enlarge Person
2. Bull's Strength
3. Wraithstrike
4. Greater Magic Weapon
5. Polymorph

This would make every Duskblade a little different; that would be fun.

But, ignoring these changes, the Duskblade is a solid class. If the classes in 4E are like the PHB2 class (plus Dread Necro and Warblade, for example) then I suspect that the prestige class system will work way better!

 

[Nifft]

What is the Int penalty for attempted thread hijacking?

Actually it's a Charisma bonus!

- - - - -

IMC, I give Sorcerers bonus Metamagic or Heritage feats every 5th level, and any new PrCs will not fully advance spellcasting.

Druids get enough goodies that they ought to be strongly tempted to stay pure. Clerics are a bit of a problem, though. I'm still working on the Perfect Cleric Fix (tm).

Cheers, -- N

 

[Votan]

And there are even more reasons not to stay in the fighter class: dead levels are extremely boring for a player, and the pure fighter gets more of those than any other class (fighters gain +1 BAB, +1d10 and +2 skill points and nothing else on these levels: 5th, 7th, 11th, 13th, 17th, & 19th). 6 levels of 20, or 30%, are just a waste of space on a character sheet. Pure spell casters, on the other hand never get dead levels, because they always gain new toys.

I am having really good success with the Book of Nine Swords. I used to play core-only. Player protest got me to experiment with the book. I have a Warblade, a Crusader and a Swordsage/wizard (heading for some dual prestige class) in my party now. They are fun, flavorful and have made melee a lot more intellectual and exciting.

Otherwise I have a Bard (I give bard's the same casting as Sorcerers and they can pick spells off of either list to encourage people to play them) and a fighter/bard.

I was suprised how this book brought back melee.

 

[Nifft]

I am having really good success with the Book of Nine Swords. [...] I was suprised how this book brought back melee.

That is wonderful. That's a book that has a job and gets it done.

-- N

 

[Seeten]

I LOVE ToB

 

[bestone]

I am having really good success with the Book of Nine Swords. [...] I was suprised how this book brought back melee.

If you consider that melee... *cough cough*

tob reminds me of the special characters from final fantasy tactics, I dont think it really brings back melee (but i dont think melee is broken, and that it depends on how the campaign is run entirely, but that is altogeather another subject lets not get into). Some of what it does isnt really melee at all, its spells, and spells through attacks.... Imho they are just slightly more combative casters.

Anyways, on to prestige classes, In my personal opinion there are far too many prestige classes out there, and players like to think they can just pick any. Personally I like to dis-allow any and all prestige classes to start. If i happen to find a place for one in my campaign i'll put it in, and it'll have very specefic requirments. They only have the choices I allow them *which is actually quite a generous amount, just not all of them*.

Often i tweak them, because i DO find them to be slightly more powerfull than the base classes, expecially ones with full caster progression.

 

[Votan]

If you consider that melee... *cough cough*

tob reminds me of the special characters from final fantasy tactics, I dont think it really brings back melee (but i dont think melee is broken, and that it depends on how the campaign is run entirely, but that is altogeather another subject lets not get into). Some of what it does isnt really melee at all, its spells, and spells through attacks.... Imho they are just slightly more combative casters.

Anyways, on to prestige classes, In my personal opinion there are far too many prestige classes out there, and players like to think they can just pick any. Personally I like to dis-allow any and all prestige classes to start. If i happen to find a place for one in my campaign i'll put it in, and it'll have very specefic requirments. They only have the choices I allow them *which is actually quite a generous amount, just not all of them*.

Often i tweak them, because i DO find them to be slightly more powerfull than the base classes, expecially ones with full caster progression.

Well, Book of Nine Swords made players enjoy melee again; I am not going to wonder why (maybe the game only supports this caster-heavy approach). I am just happy that they are having a blast slaughtering foes with swords while my encounters seem to remain balanced.

Reducing or limiting prestige classes is certainly a legitmate option. I was looking for a general principles approach to avoid massive handcrafting of these classes. But, if you decide to use them as world-building tools (the original purpose), then this will be just as effective as any other approach to making them work well.