D&D 4E Should Spell Resistance make it into 4e

I recognize that Antimagic Field (or Null Magic Field, or whatever of the same function) is complex to adjudicate, but I feel it is a staple of at least some fantasy and should not be removed. I am not saying it should necessarily stay as a spell, but rules for such effects need to be in the 4th edition.

Hmm, now that I think about it some more, I cannot remember a single instance, where I actually used an Antimagic Field/Dead Magic Zone/Null Magic Field/Etcetera as a DM.

BTW: I too love how the Star Wars Saga Edition deals with saves/defenses!
 

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Bah. I think they ought to stay. These aren't things that seriously complicate the game in and of themselves, they should be fairly simple to handle.

The only things that make them complicated are 1) WotC's inclusion of too many bonuses, buffs, debuffs, and stacking/nonstacking effects that have no limits or anything to keep them from becoming a chore, and 2) the fact that WotC can't manage to bother with any serious effort to print a clear set of rules in the first place, and then stick to their guns rather than giving everything an 'ahh, just get it out on the market already, we'll deal with any problems later' stamp of approval. I don't know if this has to do with being part of Hasbro now or not.

The whole mess of problems with Polymorph in 3rd Edition stems from the same basic problems. No real limitations were included (Shapechange and such just further worsen matters). Especially since WotC removed the old chance of mind-altering/no-going-back when using polymorph, which would limit its potential abuse. Just as they removed the aging drawback from Wish, for example (and removed other aging magic). Rather than just simplifying and balancing such things (like, let's say Wish drains 5% of your base maximum lifespan each time you cast it; so if your max is 100 years of life, and by the time you reach 50 you've cast 10 Wishes, you're dead; that would solve the problem of elves and suchlike having no problem with aging magic). Not like some 9th-level/epic spell couldn't be added that allowed a chance of regaining some lost years, or an artifact to do so, something an adventurer would really want to quest for.

It really, really wouldn't be hard to figure out and set down a concrete definition for Dispel Magic, Antimagic Field, and such, including how Spell Resistance works (though I'd prefer it be called Magic Resistance again and apply to more than just spells). All the company really has to do is not ignore what they set down in the first place when they start making all kinds of new magical effects, spells, and whatnot for later supplements. Is it really all that frikkin' hard to look at the definition of 2 or 3 spells/abilities in the Core Rules before printing a spell or creature that might violate, obfuscate, or confuse the matter of how it should interact with said Core Rules effect? It's not like it's hard to identify which spells may cause such problems, since they'd have to be doing some unusual effect to be a potential problem with the Core Rules as written.

We really, really don't need 300 or 500 hundred spells or whatever in the Player's Handbook alone, so it's not like WotC has to try and cram clear rules text into the Core Rulebooks. Tricky stuff like Mordenkainen's Disjunction, for example, does not have to be in the core rules if it would take up too much space to explain properly (and really, it should just have a simpler manner of functioning). We don't need a dozen different spells to buff a creature's Strength score, for example; Enlarge, Strengthen, and one other spell would do it, for example, as in older editions, but instead we get all kinds of spells in the Core Rules that are just slight variations or different-leveled versions with more effects piled on. If you want a Bull's Strength To The MAX! spell, you just apply metamagic to a Bull's Strength, or use another metamagic feat to cast both Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person in the same action. It really wouldn't be hard to fix metamagic either.
 

Arkhandus said:
If you want a Bull's Strength To The MAX! spell, you just apply metamagic to a Bull's Strength, or use another metamagic feat to cast both Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person in the same action. It really wouldn't be hard to fix metamagic either.
That's a really good idea.
 

Sammael said:
If the SW Saga Edition saves - now called "defenses" - are a preview for 4E, than this issue has already been resolved. All spells that had a touch attack will now require the caster to beat the target's Reflex Defense. Yay for one less layer of complexity (which actually makes sense)!

Not to derail the thread, but is there any word yet how armor works with the Reflex=AC system? I suspect it grants Damage Reduction plus changes the Damage Threshold. Alternatively, it could effect Fortitude, but Fortitude is also used for resisting poisons, diseases, and so on, so that would make less sense.

I love what I am reading about the SW SE damage/hit point mechanics thus far, all the way from the saves as defenses to the triple hit die at level one (though I have considerably less love for the skill system changes... I guess they make sense for Star Wars, where all important characters in the movies can do a bit of everything, but I would not want that ported to D&D).
 

I disagree that SR should just be a bonus to saves. I think having effects that bypass normal saves is important to keep things interesting, and the basic defense against those attacks is SR.

Perhaps energy resistance effects should become a bonus to saves instead.
 

Energy resistance doesn't bother me as much, although I preferred the way it worked in 3.0. Energy immunity, on the other hand, should be exceedingly rare - only elementals and such should have it, IMO. All other creatures should just have really, really high resistance.
 

Roman said:
Not to derail the thread, but is there any word yet how armor works with the Reflex=AC system? I suspect it grants Damage Reduction plus changes the Damage Threshold. Alternatively, it could effect Fortitude, but Fortitude is also used for resisting poisons, diseases, and so on, so that would make less sense.

I love what I am reading about the SW SE damage/hit point mechanics thus far, all the way from the saves as defenses to the triple hit die at level one (though I have considerably less love for the skill system changes... I guess they make sense for Star Wars, where all important characters in the movies can do a bit of everything, but I would not want that ported to D&D).
Judging by the previews, armor increases your Damage Threshold (the ammount of damage that makes you move one place in the condition track).

Back to topic:

- I totally agree on the Spell Resistance thing. Make it a bonus vs. Spell and Spell-like abilities and be done with it.
- Dispel Magic I like, and should stay.
- Antimagic should be a natural occurence, not something you create with magic.
 

Sammael said:
Energy resistance doesn't bother me as much, although I preferred the way it worked in 3.0. Energy immunity, on the other hand, should be exceedingly rare - only elementals and such should have it, IMO. All other creatures should just have really, really high resistance.

I too prefer the 3.0 method. But the main thing is that energy attacks work against HP and saves (usually). A third, separate way to defeat them is a bit of overkill, IMO. On the other hand, non energy effects can do lots of different things, some of which are pretty nasty and don't go against HP. Dropping those attacks down to a single mode of defense seems rather problematic, both in power (high saves basically = immunity, or effects that bypass saves ignore everything then) and in tactics. A Finger of Death or Baleful Poly can drop a powerful monster in 1 fluke roll instead of requiring two.
 

Maybe dispel magic should be a skill or a feat. After you ID the spell with Spellcraft, and know its level, you just burn one of your slots or spells of the same level to remove the effect.
 

On a related topic, Counterspelling needs to be extremely retooled. "Readying an action to counterspell in case the enemy starts casting a spell, in hopes that I also have the spell available" is a tad specific.
 

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