D&D 5E Should the Fighter's "Second Wind" ability grant temporary HP instead of regular HP?

[billd91]

Second Wind is the "pick yourself up off the mat" ability. The fighter looks like he's down for the count but he sucks it up, shakes it off, and keeps fighting. Given that this happens all the time in the real world (in televised events no less) it's surprising that people continue to dismiss this ability as unrealistic...

One of the issues I've had with this concept in 4e was that it was likely to happen every fight. Pulling yourself off the mat should be dramatic, but if you're doing it every fight, where's the drama? And that's my concern with this mechanic if it's refreshable with a short rest. If you can get a short rest easily between every encounter, then this power works every encounter and will be used every encounter. At that point, it's not very special. Why not just say the fighter heals an extra 1d10+level when taking a rest?

Now, if "short rest" is definable by campaign and doesn't just mean 5 minutes of noodling about after the last encounter, then this might be able to generate a bit more of the drama the name and your description for it imply.

 

[BoldItalic]

One of the issues I've had with this concept in 4e was that it was likely to happen every fight. Pulling yourself off the mat should be dramatic, but if you're doing it every fight, where's the drama? And that's my concern with this mechanic if it's refreshable with a short rest. If you can get a short rest easily between every encounter, then this power works every encounter and will be used every encounter. At that point, it's not very special. Why not just say the fighter heals an extra 1d10+level when taking a rest?

Now, if "short rest" is definable by campaign and doesn't just mean 5 minutes of noodling about after the last encounter, then this might be able to generate a bit more of the drama the name and your description for it imply.

Taking a short rest is risky. If the DM is on the ball, the next encounter is liable to be hammering at the door before you have a chance to complete the hour uninterrupted. So a strategy of taking a short rest after every encounter isn't necessarily going to work. It's a matter of encounter pacing and the DM should be controlling that, to keep the players on edge for long enough to feel stretched without being over-stretched to breaking point.

 

[Obryn]

One of the issues I've had with this concept in 4e was that it was likely to happen every fight.

In 4e? Oh goodness no, unless you're a dwarf, with a cheap way of using it. Otherwise it's far too costly, action-wise, and inferior to any other kind of healing in the game. So it works fine as a "last resort" deal, or an "I have to step back and take a breather" deal, but it's certainly a sign you're on the ropes.

In Next, I don't think it's intended to be dramatic so much as a way for a Fighter to be more Fighter-ish.

 

[Rykion]

I see HP as an abstraction so I'm not bothered either way. As long as a short rest requires at least an hour, fighters in my campaign are only likely to get their second wind once every 4 or 5 encounters.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

5th level fighter with a 14 con has 4d10+20hp... lets go with 45 (just a wi bit above average)

Lets have a goblin that uses a short sword do 1d6+1 damage...

SO round 1 6 goblins attack the fighter, and they win initative (or have surprise doesn't matter just act first) 4 out of 6 hit him, so the first one HITS with a short sword for 4 damge, the second HITS with a short sword for 7 Damage, the third HITS with a short sword for 3 Damage, and the 4th HITS with a short sword for 4 damage...total 18 hit points of damage.... brinigng our fighter from 45hp to 27hp

now the fighter strikes back and kills 2 goblins... 4 goglins then get to act, and 1 is a coward and runs (he doesn't like his 50/50 shot of dieing in 6 seconds) the other three think they totally got this... 1 crits and other 2 hit... it is there lucky day... 1st goblins hits for 5 damage, 2nd goblins CRITS (A CRITICAL HIT WITH A LONG SHARP METAL SWORD) for 10 damage, the third goblin hits for 3 damage... so the fighter took 18 damage this round so the fighter has 9hp left... then the fighter kills the next two goblins...

it is now one on one and the goblin is dumb enough to like those odds, and he hits...he does max damage...7...then the fighter kills him. the fighter got hit 7 times normally and 1 crit in about 20 seconds... these are steel swords breaching his armor and not being dodge...

The fighter walks away and has no penalty... he is equally able to run for miles or lift heavy rocks, or swing his sword... after 8 hits by a sword, one of witch is a critical hit.

Now someone who is a real dislike of second wind healing... please tell me the narrative in a simiulationist way for the encounter without any healing at all...

 

[ccooke]

These days, I prefer to think of HP as not meat, but pain.

Any time you lose hit points (unless there's some magic or drugs involved to deaden senses), it hurts you. This is works fine to me as a simulationist principle (yes, I'm sure that it doesn't work for others): The difference between a "hit" and a "miss" when someone swings a sharp bit of steel at you is what it costs you to avoid being sliced open and bleeding out. A "miss" is when the blade doesn't connect at all, or you can avoid the force of the blow with movement, armour, etc. I usually narrate hits as the blade actually connecting, but not enough to leave a critical wound - shallow cuts, bruises, skinned knuckles, etc. Hit points, then, are basically your ability to absorb injury and pain. Every hit that you take that does not drop you to 0hp, no matter what the source, is something that causes you pain and reduces your ability to avoid further blows. Dropping to 0hp means the blade not only connected, it's left you on the floor gasping, wondering if those are your intestines.

It works just as well for less physical wounds - fire damage means you've taken burns. They hurt, but they won't kill you (quickly). Magic either causes physical effects which you're still trying to dodge, or less physical pain effects that you're fighting to stay conscious from.

Creatures with only a handful of hitpoints are either weak, inexperienced in taking really damaging blows or both.

For my newest games, I'm going with HP-as-pain and an Exhaustion-based wounds system that I find pleasingly good for simulating fantasy combat, at least. My players like it: After a combat, the number of HP they've lost is a measure of how much pain they're in, which provides a useful cue for roleplay. Sure, their characters are physically *capable* of pretty much anything if they haven't taken a wound, but until they do something to patch themselves up they're going to be in too much pain to want to consider it. I've been known to add (or prevent the recovery of) a level of exhaustion if they try to sleep without doing something about their HP loss (hit dice healing, then, involves cleaning and bandaging cuts, applying poultices to bruises, taking pain-relieving herbs, etc). Magical healing just wipes away the injury entirely, which is why it's more powerful.

 

[Tovec]

Personally I like 2nd wind as healing - that's my 4e inclinations showing!

But I think temp hp are the worst option, because they encourage you to use 2nd wind early (to get the temp hp) and then when they are lost, they are no more temporary than other hp. So the people who don't like 2nd wind as "real" hp still don't get what they want; and the people like me who want 2nd wind as more about resurgence than preparation don't get what they want either. Which seems a bad outcome.

I think the 3e-barbarian-style option makes 2nd wind a lot weaker, but at least it still makes it about resurgence rather than prep, and it makes it genuinely temporary as the critics of the current version are looking for.

Unless there is subtext I'm missing - you seem to be saying that this is a decent compromise? Yes it isn't ideal, since you lean 4e, but is it an acceptable middle ground? It wouldn't be used prematurely and aren't first lost, but also give a non-permanent pool of HP. Seems like a win-win to me. I'm onboard.

 

[BryonD]

5th level fighter with a 14 con has 4d10+20hp... lets go with 45 (just a wi bit above average)
...

these are steel swords breaching his armor and not being dodge...

The fighter walks away and has no penalty... he is equally able to run for miles or lift heavy rocks, or swing his sword... after 8 hits by a sword, one of witch is a critical hit.

Now someone who is a real dislike of second wind healing... please tell me the narrative in a simiulationist way for the encounter without any healing at all...

You have already unfairly and unjustly framed the question when you say "these are steel swords breaching his armor and not being dodge".

Whenever the rules mandate everything is abstract, some kind of annoying conflict is unavoidable. (for my tastes)
Whenever the rules mandate that everything is physical, some kind of annoying conflict is unavoidable. (for my tastes)

Now, for your case WITH second wind, I'd like to know how YOU justify being able to do all those things after all these "steel swords breaching his armor and not being dodge", being as you have stated these strikes as a fact in your personal case.

In the mean time, here is my answer:
I strongly prefer (near-on demand) that HP retain the ability to build narrative, on-the-fly, that combines abstract and real damage. The DM (with player support) controls where the line is draw here for what makes the best sense and maximizes fun.
Here are some ground rules for me:
A good critical hit with a longsword is a blow that will kill a standard person (a commoner 1, if you will).
Even a commoner 1 will recover from pretty much any basic (read HP) damage that doesn't kill him. (Healing works like characters in TV shows; in the hospital at the end of the episode, but back up an around next week, maybe with a bandage or a limp, like nothing happened another episode out.)
These fundamentals apply to PCs, but PCs rapidly outclass normal people.
A sword through the middle is just a deadly to a 17th level fighter as it is to a commoner 1.
Even without assistance a 17th level fighter will recover in remarkably less time than is remotely "real world". But it still takes some time to recover. (lacking outside healing)
Action heroes "ain't got time to bleed". This means that PCs (and in D&D this applies to anything) can have "serious" cuts and scrapes but still function at full strength. We are not talking broken limbs or extreme trauma. But serious bleeding, gashes, thumps to the head, etc, don't slow you down until you get that hit that takes you below 0 HP. That is the heroic nature of D&D and it works for me.

In your case the 5th level fighter was on the receiving end of numerous blows, any one of which would be a grievous wound to a common person, and one that would have been an easy one hit kill. But I reject your mandate that "these are steel swords breaching his armor and not being dodge". I do embrace the idea that most gained HP are skill/luck/karma/fate. Thus the idea that the one hit kill blow must have still embrace the CRITICAL HIT!!! obligation of being run through doesn't hold for me. Avoiding the critical hit takes up more karma than avoiding the merely "grievous wound" hits. (proportionally to the HP value). But this also does not mean the blow must have been avoided altogether. The character is collecting "serious bleeding, gashes, thumps to the head, etc". He is not slowed down, but his HP represents a combination of the physical and luck. I think any effort to quantify the break between these two is a bad idea and leads to conflict. But there is some damage that has to heal over time. The time will be very fast compared to reality, but it takes time.
Here is a concept that I have never seen in print, but to me has always been intuitive and has always worked well. The healing of the abstract HP is directly correlated to the healing of both real physical damage and the “avoided” value of physical damage that the abstract HP allowed the character to not suffer. Obviously this is mandatory since they are one pool of points. But it also has a nice side effect of glossing over why cure light wounds can return a deathbed commoner 1 to full strength, but a high level fighter sees minimal benefit (setting aside the case of going from negative to positive). The healing is restoring both “karma” or whatever, as well as mending cuts. The energy is absorbed into this abstraction.

Thus, my narrative is that the 2 HP remaining 5th level fighter did NOT have swords going through him. But he is seriously roughed up and bloodied. (not meaning the 4E term) He needs several days (or external healing) before he faces the next squad of goblins. He can swing his sword just as well because he has no truly debilitating wounds and he “ain’t got time to bleed”. But he is a little beat up and all out of karma. So the next blow that would through and through a commoner, is probably going to through and through him as well.
If he can find somewhere to rest for the night, then he will be a 7 HP. Better than before, but he still needs a lot before he is ready to take on another squad of goblins. His capacity to swing the sword is unaffected in either case. But his total combat capacity in the “can’t self-heal” case still reflects the burden of that last battle. In the self healing case he is able to back at full strength with no lingering effects. It is impossible for him to receive any damage from the goblins that isn’t gone in 24 hours.

I’m not looking to argue with anyone who loves self healing. Play what you like. But, for me, it is easy to see how the demand of outside healing can and does work. And it fits my taste and desire for simulation of fantasy stories and action movies much better. So I play what I like.

I’m looking forward to trying 5E. It has a lot of bits that appeal to me. The HD healing is a concern, but I’m looking for ways to mitigate it. And I have reason to hope they will be there. If not, there are plenty of other great games out there.

 

[gweinel]

Neither of the two.
There should be a parry like ability that grants damage reduction the amount of these hp or something really different.

 

[DDNFan]

The problem with 5th isn't that there are some inspirational HP, it's that they are hard baked into the fighter class and we can't remove it.

It shows a complete disdain on the part of the developers who promised us modularity, because "one size does not fit all". That was a lie. They lied to us.

Not only are they aware of that Second Wind restoring HP lies along the fault line of this HP divide, they actually made them Temp HP then switched it back! As if we wouldn't notice. If there's an alternate Second Wind in a sidebar, I'll eat my words. But I am 99% sure there won't be, because the designers don't actually see the problem with it. Because they are all of a certain generation and you need only look at their resumes to see where their design skills were learned.

This is either laziness, incompetence, or hubris on their part.

Do they think everyone's going to hop on board 5th edition where they try to force incompatible visions of what the game is, to work together? They were supposed to enable these things through optional rules. Now no matter what slow healing module they print in the DMG, we can't get rid of Second Wind at the same time, as they are probably sprinkling such "gems" a little here and there, to be cute like it's some kind of DS mechanic easter egg hunt.

HP as stamina is just as ridiculous to many of us as HP as inspiration. Using the word "abstract" doesn't inherently make any argument correct.

The idea that only the last 1 HP or 1 hit's worth of HP lost is the only injury is not what the rules say, it's not even what the 4th editions rules say is happening as you're taking damage. Below 50% your character is bloodied and has visible signs of injury. If you have 21 HP and take 20, then take another 1 HP damage, which was the more serious attack? If you say the 1 HP vs the 20 HP blow, I have to just facepalm myself out of the discussion because it's too absurd to respond to.

I deal 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 damage, or 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Are all those attacks equally powerful? Is the 5 HP attack worth more than the 1 depending on the order they were dealt?

HP as stamina or inspiration until it crosses below 0 puts all attacks other than the final one as meaningless. A 200 HP dragon being pelted by arrows, gets whittled down to 5 HP by all kinds of damage and blasts, but we're supposed to believe that only the last 5 HP attack is the only one that could possibly have hurt it? It's not what the rules say, it's not how gamer fans of any edition preference actually play the game. A dragon takes damage, and all HP are treated as equal. Meaning each and every point of HP is part injury, part something else. Otherwise the order of attacks matters, and only the very last is the real one that made any connection.

That is not how the game works or is narrated. You can narrate it the way you like, but even in 4th edition HP below 50% clearly shows injuries narratively speaking, injuries which are recognizable at distance by opponents and allies alike. If you are narrating HP loss below 50% as having zero meat component, you are simply not playing by the rules and I have no interest in debating other people's pet houserules because they are irrelevant.