Should there be a "Vile/Mature" line of products?

[Darrin Drader]

A) Do you think there would be an audience?
B) Would you buy it?
C) If you supported such a line would you also evangelize it (let people know that it was out there and that it was cool)?
D) Would you defend it (there will be people who will proclaim the death of gaming if such a line were to come into existence)?
E) And finally, would you participate (post ideas, drawings, stories, etc. on a website, network with other players, help develop codes of conduct and ethics for play etc. )?

Why do I get this feeling that this line of questioning is about 2 weeks ahead of some crazy and unexpected press release?

Anyway,
(A) Yes (B) I would buy the first couple to evaluate it and then go from there based on that. (C) Yes, if I like it. (D) Again yes, if I like it. (E) Sure, why not?

 

[Maerdwyn]

A) Do you think there would be an audience?
B) Would you buy it?
C) If you supported such a line would you also evangelize it (let people know that it was out there and that it was cool)?
D) Would you defend it (there will be people who will proclaim the death of gaming if such a line were to come into existence)?
E) And finally, would you participate (post ideas, drawings, stories, etc. on a website, network with other players, help develop codes of conduct and ethics for play etc. )?

A) Yes
B)No
C)No
D)Yes
E)No

Most of my (and, if I read correctly, many others') concern here regards Dragon and Dungeon and the core products of D&D. As long as it were a seperate line, which i could avoid and still be playing well-supported D&D, one "mature/vile/gooey" product a year or thirty a year wouldn't bother me.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Why do I get this feeling that this line of questioning is about 2 weeks ahead of some crazy and unexpected press release?

Crazy, nice, and unexpected.

Anyway,
(A) Yes (B) I would buy the first couple to evaluate it and then go from there based on that. (C) Yes, if I like it. (D) Again yes, if I like it. (E) Sure, why not?

Normally, I'm not keen on others speeking for me, but this about sums up my stance rather nicely.

 

[mkarol]

A) Do you think there would be an audience?
B) Would you buy it?
C) If you supported such a line would you also evangelize it (let people know that it was out there and that it was cool)?
D) Would you defend it (there will be people who will proclaim the death of gaming if such a line were to come into existence)?
E) And finally, would you participate (post ideas, drawings, stories, etc. on a website, network with other players, help develop codes of conduct and ethics for play etc. )?

A) Judging by the poll in the other thread; yes.
B) Maybe. Depends on whether it fits a game in which I am playing or inspires me/my group to start a new one. I would love the option.
C) Yes
D) Even More Yes; Give me liberty or give me death, yadd yadda
E) Sure, especially if there were a "Mature d20" forum here at ENworld.

---

Of course, this begs the question of whether there should be a G or PG line also. I think i saw some 'young readers' dragon lance novels; what happens when those young readers pick up the MM and see 'demons' and 'devils'? Oh wait, no high-jacking the thread...

 

[Shadowdancer]

Yes to the first question, no to the second question.

 

[Merlion]

Folks,

Please note I am posting from home so although I can never shed my WotC link please keep in mind that this is me as a private person not me as a WotC person.

I find this thread interesting. Bit of history - when the Book of Vile Darkness arrived I read it and said, "nice rules set, now where's the vileness?" Needless to say alot of people looked at me a bit crosseyed after that. "Vile" and "Mature" are very much in the eyes of the beholder (so are disintegration rays but that's a different topic). WotC, as most of you have surmised, is going to put out about one product per year in the arena of more mature material. I don't think we will do more then that and there are certain realms that we just won't touch. In addition, the level of "vileness" or maturity (however you want to quantify it) will never get beyond what you saw in BoVD.

So here's the question. DC created Vertigo to handle comics that were too mature for its standard line. What if a d20 company arose with solid game designers and top notch people that focused on a mature gaming line. Now when I say mature I don't mean salacious - I mean mature - like Vertigo. Sort of a medeival Hellblazer if you like.

A) Do you think there would be an audience?
B) Would you buy it?
C) If you supported such a line would you also evangelize it (let people know that it was out there and that it was cool)?
D) Would you defend it (there will be people who will proclaim the death of gaming if such a line were to come into existence)?
E) And finally, would you participate (post ideas, drawings, stories, etc. on a website, network with other players, help develop codes of conduct and ethics for play etc. )?

Anthony Valterra

Yes I think their would be an audience. I will buy any product that I like and think I will find useful if I have money. And yes to all the others with any product that I have found to be good useful and enjoyable.
So why the heck is BOED mature??

 

[Olive]

A) Do you think there would be an audience?
B) Would you buy it?
C) If you supported such a line would you also evangelize it (let people know that it was out there and that it was cool)?
D) Would you defend it (there will be people who will proclaim the death of gaming if such a line were to come into existence)?
E) And finally, would you participate (post ideas, drawings, stories, etc. on a website, network with other players, help develop codes of conduct and ethics for play etc. )?

Anthony Valterra

a) i would have thought so, but you know BoVD sales figures so you tell us.

b) Almost certainly. The BoVD is one of the best 3e books I own, because it gives me the rules to do things that i want to do in my games. As long as the books are interesting (like good vertigo) and not purile crap (like some bad vertigo) then i'd be into it.

c) I've been doing this as much as possible with the BoVD, so yeah sure i would.

d) as above. i always said that BoVD was a goods thing, and that there wasn't a need to worry. And I think I was right. thee hasn't been a mainstream backlash (as far as i can tell), and it's unlikely to occur for any other line.

e) you mean like i already do with ENWorld? Sure.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

A) Do you think there would be an audience?
B) Would you buy it?
C) If you supported such a line would you also evangelize it (let people know that it was out there and that it was cool)?
D) Would you defend it (there will be people who will proclaim the death of gaming if such a line were to come into existence)?
E) And finally, would you participate (post ideas, drawings, stories, etc. on a website, network with other players, help develop codes of conduct and ethics for play etc. )?

Anthony Valterra

My answers:

A. Yes.
B. Depends on the individual product. If there really is the diversity found in your example of Vertigo (which I'm very much taking to heart; Vertigo isn't all about gore and torture and other salacious things), then it's likely I'd buy some of it, but not anything more "vile" than the BoVD. Probably even nothing as "vile" as BoVD - it pretty much went as far as I'd like, and a bit further.
C. Depends on how consistent the line is. If it was consistently good and avoided needless exploitation, then yeah. That doesn't mean I'd evangelize every single product sight unseen. I'm sure you understand that.
D. Same answer as C.
E. Probably only in a very limited way. Again, it depends on the individual product.

Anthony, this is all predicated upon the assumption this stuff would never be marketed to kids, and I assume you're of the same opinion. I know it's probably almost rhetorical to say, but I thought I'd say it anyway.

 

[rounser]

WotC doesn't publish the one D&D product I still value any more, so I don't really care what they do. Dungeon I don't mind using "vile" crunch, but I'd rather they drop the plot-based magical variants on rape and torture stuff.

It's a pity that marketing has managed to confuse a lot of good material with other stuff that I don't want to read about/don't want in my game. Not talking about the BoVD itself, here, either.

 

[Anthony Valterra]

Rant warning

Folks,

Thanks for the feedback. To answer some questions on this very theoretical topic. BoVD sold very well and still sells well today. This theoretical line would be very much in the Vertigo sense - mature in the true sense of the word not just gore for gores sake or sex for sex's sake (ooo on the verge of tongue twister). And yes anything like this would be clearly labeled adult and sold only to those over 18.

Now to get on my soapbox (which if you ever meet me at a con and take me out for a drink you will realize I do at the drop of a hat) but...

It strikes me that the vast majority of gamers are over 18. That a large chunk of them read the Vertigo line or the Authority series or read From Hell. They go to R rated movies and the idea of piercing or tattooing or fetishes is not something supremely shocking. That the stereotype of a reclusive guy who can only stammer around girls is just that - a stereotype. That most of us have or have had relationships, know gamers of the opposite sex and have even gamed with the opposite sex. We can interact with each other maturely and probably late at night with our friends carry on conversations about topics that are sensitive but we do so in a way in which no one is offended. At one time comic books were seen as the province of teenagers but eventually someone took a chance and tried to write something a bit more mature - a bit more high brow. Maybe its time that gaming went that route. Certainly White Wolf has started cutting that trail and BoVD has contributed.
Okay off soapbox, end rant.

AV