Should there be a "Vile/Mature" line of products?

[Samnell]

A) Obviously.
B) Sure.
C) I don't really do that very much now, so I probably wouldn't then either excepting my small gaming circle.
D) Probably. Someone has to considering the type of response news of every WotC release gets here. Then again by the time I get around to it someone's usually said all the stuff I'd say.
E) Possibly.

 

[Guillaume]

Re: Rant warning

Folks,

It strikes me that the vast majority of gamers are over 18. That a large chunk of them read the Vertigo line or the Authority series or read From Hell. They go to R rated movies and the idea of piercing or tattooing or fetishes is not something supremely shocking. That the stereotype of a reclusive guy who can only stammer around girls is just that - a stereotype. That most of us have or have had relationships, know gamers of the opposite sex and have even gamed with the opposite sex. We can interact with each other maturely and probably late at night with our friends carry on conversations about topics that are sensitive but we do so in a way in which no one is offended. At one time comic books were seen as the province of teenagers but eventually someone took a chance and tried to write something a bit more mature - a bit more high brow. Maybe its time that gaming went that route. Certainly White Wolf has started cutting that trail and BoVD has contributed.
Okay off soapbox, end rant.

AV

I certainly agree with your concept of the market. I certainly think that there is a market for more high brow stuff. I definitely think that come people enjoy and will enjoy Vile products.

That being said, although I do enjoy some darker litterature some times, I am not looking for it in my D&D game. Other are, but not me. The reason I think that a seperate product line is generally a good idea is the simple fact that it allows me to stay clear of the stuff I am not interested in. Since I am not looking for Vile material, if it is label as such, it allows me to chose not to buy it.

It all comes down to that, what is the best way to offer the product to the constumers and offer them the choice : clear labeling. If you spring a Vile material on me, sure, I might read it, but you have taken away my ability to chose since I will now about the vileness only after the fact, not before. That is what annoys me the most.

As for Dungeon magazine, I have stated in another that I buy it for the time and the money it saves me. If in the long run, the magazine forces me to buy more material or do more adaptation work than what is the strict minimum to run it's adventures in my campaign, it reduces the benefits stated above. Therefore the value diminishes, for me. Since I do not own the BoVD, and do not plan on owning it anytime soon (it just isn't appealing to me), I would rather Paizo kept the Vile stuff seperate from the "normal" stuff.

 

[kenjib]

Re: Rant warning

This theoretical line would be very much in the Vertigo sense - mature in the true sense of the word not just gore for gores sake or sex for sex's sake (ooo on the verge of tongue twister).

Hi Anthony,

Thanks for talking to the fans and being open to feedback. Do you think the Book of Vile Darkness is a good example of "mature in the true sense of the word?" How about the sealed Dragon articles? Are these representative of the type of material we should expect to see in such a theoretical product line or did you have something different in mind?

 

[Dextolen]

A) Do you think there would be an audience?
B) Would you buy it?
C) If you supported such a line would you also evangelize it (let people know that it was out there and that it was cool)?
D) Would you defend it (there will be people who will proclaim the death of gaming if such a line were to come into existence)?
E) And finally, would you participate (post ideas, drawings, stories, etc. on a website, network with other players, help develop codes of conduct and ethics for play etc. )?

Anthony Valterra

A) Yes
B) No
C) No, see B.
D) No
E) Probably Not

Go ahead and make it, just keep it out of the core books and key publications.

 

[Hand of Evil]

And TNN is changing its name to Spike and is targetting the male pop. "More Vile" is just that an ad, shock and awe (trade mark Sony). It is to try and get more readers, it is a buzz word, got you to look kind of thing.

Think about this...

Does "more vile" improve the quality of the product?

 

[S'mon]

age-rating

Yes. PG-13. NC-17. whatever. like a store clerk is gonna check IDs on books.

The sensible approach is to have a suggested age category on products. In the world of PBEMs (play by email games), anyone with any sense makes sure that the game's content is known to prospective players/lurkers by, typically, an age rating - PG, 15, R, NC-17, Over 21 & similar, mostly for sexual content, with some consideration for graphic horror & violence. This isn't intended to be an (impossible) prohibition on younger people accessing the game, what it is is a guide so people don't unwittingly see something they don't want to. As far as I can see, WotC's 'Vile' content is barely PG-13 anyway, it's more of a marketing tool to attract teens who think 'D&D is for kids'.

 

[Tiefling]

Re: Rant warning

And yes anything like this would be clearly labeled adult and sold only to those over 18.

You aren't serious. Are you?

That would have to be the first age-restricted book in the United States.

 

[Henry]

Re: Re: Rant warning

You aren't serious. Are you?

That would have to be the first age-restricted book in the United States.

Not counting "Adult" magazines, that is.

 

[Belen]

Judging by the BoVD, I am not certain how successful such an enterprise could be. A found a lot of the content to be immature in nature with more of a gross out factor that a "mature" discussion of the nature of the beast. I believe that a book dedicated to creating villains, evil or oppressed socieities etc would have been far more worthwhile. I guess that I get hung up on the necrophilia and such found in the book. As I said before, that does not strike me as mature, just sick and disgusting. Immaturity that only the big kids are supposed to see. However, I have never seen game stores actually keep the book away from kids. Heck, I saw one kid that had to be 11 paging through it a few weeks ago at a store!

Ok, now supposing that a mature company was created. What material would we see? More gross out factor or something that honestly pulls off mature?

I think we really need to know what WOTC considers mature to make a proper response. You mentioned the mature comic company; however, comics are far different than gaming. Comics do not have GMs and players actively using their imagination; Comics are static and unchanging where DnD is dynamic and can change from hour to hour.

As a GM, I control the "maturity" of the game. I had dealt with rape, torture, and "vile/ evil" long before the BoVD ever became a concept. I still do it without using the BoVD because I believe it is a matter of story elements, not a matter for rules and crunch!

I do agree with you Mr. Valterra. The BoVD was neither vile, nore mature. It was more gross out, which surprised me as I had expected so much more from the book, especially considering that I have bought every other item produced by Monte Cook.

Ok, so some questions:

What do you consider mature? How about my fellow EnWorlders?
What would we see in this line?


One final thing..... new gamers are the lifeblood of our hobby and the only way to gain new gamers would be to recruit among middle and high school students, yet I do not see ANYONE making that attempt. Yes, current gamers seem to be older, but let us all think back to when we started. I was 15 and I'll bet a fair number of you were that age or younger. Shouldn't we all be doing something to influence the younger generation?

 

[Darke]

Should there be a Vile/Mature product line (distinct from the Core line)?
Should Dragon and/or Dungeon be considered "Core" material for purposes of this discussion?

Yes and No

das Darke