Should there be a "Vile/Mature" line of products?

[Belen]

Wouldn't almost have to be closed? They are not talking WOTC, but a side company shot off from WOTC making products that would not be core. Sure, some of it would fall under the d20/ OGL license, but no more than any other 3rd-party publisher would give up.

That's what I would do.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Wouldn't almost have to be closed? They are not talking WOTC, but a side company shot off from WOTC making products that would not be core. Sure, some of it would fall under the d20/ OGL license, but no more than any other 3rd-party publisher would give up.

That's what I would do.

Actually, as it's a "label", it wouldn't need to be open at all (although I think it would be more helpful if it were). Indeed, even if they made a legal seperation as a seperate business, they could have a license that permits publishing without the OGL and thus not bound to its conditions.

As for what a publisher "would" give up, that's subjective to a degree. All they have to make OC is the numerics of the rule, although it's often considered "crippled" since not releasing the text means that everything has to be rewritten/retyped, which is a bit of a pain.

By the same degree, there are some that release everything, including the stuff that falls under the definition of PI (outside of Oathbound, Bastion is great for this; Bluffside and Freeport are also on-par with this).

 

[Mouseferatu]

Just to chime in, I'd also be one of the first in line to check out such a line/label, and if it met expectations, I'd be happy to support it.

And I'd also love to see such a thing as OGL, or at least to see the core concepts make the SRD (or a similar document).

However, I have to say that I think Dragon and Dungeon should probably remain "core" material. Mature books can be labelled as "mature only." A magazine to with many subscribers who don't like the "vile" stuff cannot. If WotC determines there's a market for a vile/mature line of D&D products, perhaps it'd be worthwhile for Paizo to do a smaller, maybe bi-monthly magazine on the same topic. Or heck, even just a yearly annual magazine, if WotC is only doing one such book a year.

This keeps pretty much everyone happy. Those who like the material have access, and those who don't can easily avoid it.

 

[Gez]

Just a quandry, Anthony:

Would this proposed label (in theory) be OGL publishers, or would they be producing Closed Content like WotC?

It would be closed content, like what Kenzer do for Kalamar.

The reason why ? When you can put D&D material without having to follow the d20 license, you do it.

And another reason would be that it would requires WotC to put the BoVD mechanics into the SRD... Which is not going to happen in the ten next years at least.

 

[Psion]

Re: Rant warning

It strikes me that the vast majority of gamers are over 18.

I've heard Johnny Wilson use this logic too. And it assumes that just because we are 18 we WANT this sort of material. PG and PG-13 movies massively outsell R movies these days.

Again, not that I object to the existence of mature products for those who want them. But please, don't inundate the core line with this stuff, and don't make me slog through hentaiesque demonsperm spells just because I want some rules for demon possession or stats for a demon lord.

 

[Harlock]

Re: Re: Rant warning

I've heard Johnny Wilson use this logic too. And it assumes that just because we are 18 we WANT this sort of material. PG and PG-13 movies massively outsell R movies these days.

Again, not that I object to the existence of mature products for those who want them. But please, don't inundate the core line with this stuff, and don't make me slog through hentaiesque demonsperm spells just because I want some rules for demon possession or stats for a demon lord.

Amen, brother Psion. And as for people that think this would be the first age restricted book in America you are completely mistaken. There are in fact books that have had age restrictions placed on them by the publisher, the stores that sell them etc.

 

[mkletch]

A) Do you think there would be an audience?
B) Would you buy it?
C) If you supported such a line would you also evangelize it (let people know that it was out there and that it was cool)?
D) Would you defend it (there will be people who will proclaim the death of gaming if such a line were to come into existence)?
E) And finally, would you participate (post ideas, drawings, stories, etc. on a website, network with other players, help develop codes of conduct and ethics for play etc. )?

A: It really depended on what the content was. Eliminating any chance to define vile/mature within this thread really hobbles the question.

B: Probably. Depends on definition of mature/vile.

C: Probably. Depends on definition of mature/vile.

D: Probably. Depends on definition of mature/vile.

E: Maybe. Depends on definition of mature/vile.

If mature/vile means dealing with mature themes and philosophies, mature plot lines, characters with possibly controversial motivations/actions/histories, sure. The chance goes way up. If mature/vile means using overwrought descriptions and artwork in an effort to legitimize what would otherwise be simply immature silliness, then no way.

IMO the BoVD was closer to the latter, but not so much that I did not buy it. Does that please WotC? Probably; they got my buck. However, it really sours any possibility of my buying further products in that line. BoVD gave me prestige classes that are powerful but not terribly interesting, spells that, without the colorful descriptions do not even deserve the [Evil] descriptor, and definitions of evil that simply exceed normal, credible boundaries (a guy that simply breaks into a pawn shop at 4am to clear out the jewelry cabinet is hardly vile or evil).

With an analogy to the d20 STL requirement of 5% open content, perhaps 5% of the BoVD is useful to me (monsters, sacrifices, magic items). My reaction is that the 'mature' label on the BoVD was a tactic to drive sales. BoVD was the first, and first impressions mean a lot. Even if the products in this new line were actually 'mature' and interesting, it would take a lot of convincing to sell me on it.

What else would there be? Adventures? A dark campaign setting? These would help. More alignment books (the Book of Frenzied Confusion and the Book of Amazing Rigidity). Nuh-uh. The short answer, which I probably should have put at the top of the post, is that there are simply too many variables. Any conclusions drawn from this thread (and others like it on other boards) would be based on unclear premises and a miniscule sample. Sure there is some interest, but probably not enough. The 'mature' line would be the 'Chainmail' of 2004.

-Fletch!

 

[kenjib]

Re: Re: Rant warning

You aren't serious. Are you?

That would have to be the first age-restricted book in the United States.

This is incorrect. There are adult publications as mentioned by Henry. In addition, I think it's more illustrative to look at media in the broader context, of which print media is but a subset. In the media industry at large there are many age restrictions on the distribution of media -- radio, internet, television, movies theatres, and software, in addition to print media.

You and I may not agree with the way the government uses these types of restrictions, but the precedent clearly exists.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

I see no problem with age restrictions on books...

Then again, I was a Metal Head during the golden era of Dee Snider/Blackie Lawless Vs The PMRC...

Oh, those were the days.

 

[bramadan]

Folks,

I find this thread interesting. Bit of history - when the Book of Vile Darkness arrived I read it and said, "nice rules set, now where's the vileness?" Needless to say alot of people looked at me a bit crosseyed after that. "Vile" and "Mature" are very much in the eyes of the beholder

Could not agree more, the BovD was one of the more dissapointing 3ed products for its sheer timidity and the idea that "icky" and gross are somehow substitute for evil.

[/B]

A) Do you think there would be an audience?
B) Would you buy it?
C) If you supported such a line would you also evangelize it (let people know that it was out there and that it was cool)?
D) Would you defend it (there will be people who will proclaim the death of gaming if such a line were to come into existence)?
E) And finally, would you participate (post ideas, drawings, stories, etc. on a website, network with other players, help develop codes of conduct and ethics for play etc. )?

Anthony Valterra [/B]

A) Yes, the maketing research before 3ed pointed that the target audience for the d20 were coledge aged folks, COnsiderable subset of those would surely support truly "mature" line of gaming products.

B) If it were at all like BoVD, puerile and dry and not-realy-that-evil (refuse to use word "vile") then resoundingly no. If, on the other hand it were rich in atmosphere and going for the true grit of the dark fantasy then not only would I buy it but it would be my favourite d20 line in a heart beat. The atmosphere in question would be something like the George Martin's books or the "Bitter Crusade" or some other Dark Ages vampire books (but without vampires).

C) If it were cool, in the above sense, I would do all I can to let the world know.

D) Absolutely, even if it were BoVD kind of crap. I firmly believe that it is up to the market and market alone to determine what shoud sell and to whome and up to the parent and parents alone to take care of the upbringing of their children. I would object in principle to the "do not sell under 18" label but would live with it. I think that attempting to censor (or self censor) the gaming (or any other) book is probably as vile an act as any depicted therein.

E) Again, very much yes. I have a fairly large ammount of material developed for my setting without intention for it to be ever published that goes very much into what could be considered evil or mature subjects (human sacrifices, curses, sexual magic etc...). I would indeed be willing to post some of that on the aforementioned site (and maybe, just maybe, catch the eye of the publisher of such a line.... )