Should there be a "Vile/Mature" line of products?

[Emirikol]

Thanks. Must have been late

Em

 

[Merlion]

I think how their handling things now is pretty good. although I've still little idea why the Book of Exalted Deeds would NEED to be in the Mature line.

 

[kenjib]

Should there be a Vile/Mature product line (distinct from the Core line)?

ANSWER: Sure, why not?

Should Dragon and/or Dungeon be considered "Core" material for purposes of this discussion?

ANSWER: Yes. Dragon and Dungeon should be kid friendly (as in 1e kid friendly, not 2e kid friendly).

I do think it's good to be more inclusive of non-core & d20 material though (which some people seem to be confused about even though it's not really part of your question).

 

[Darrin Drader]

Yes and definitely yes. Also keep in mind that the same people who brought you Dragon magzine and Dungeon magazine at WotC are exactly the same people who are bringing it to you from Paizo. They work out of a different office building, and that's about where the change ends. Therefore, the shift in content reflects the shift in products in D&D rather than a shift in ownership. They may have slightly more leeway to be more experiemental with the magazine, but the talent behind the magazine is still the same - that talent of course being the contributors.

Here's my definition of vile material first:
murder, rape, abusive sexual content, self-destructive addictions, wonton abuse of slaves and servants, causing misery, destruction, and Mass-Murderer's five minutes of fame just to 'see the look on people's faces because of what he's done.'

Now, as far as I'm concerned, this stuff should only be presented as the 'bad guys.' Any situation where the PC's are required to do things like this is best left out of the game. If the bad guys do this stuff and the DM describes it as being 'evil' then no biggie. Heck, it's hard to describe a bad guy as 'well he stole Mrs. Ginny's chickens and then tied her husband up to a tree.' With all of the violence already in the D&D game and the 'real world,' it shouldn't be much of a leap to include the material above.

I agree with this statement. The Book of Vile Darkness states that it is a resource for DM's and is not intended for players. D&D is note intended as a game where psychopathic sickos can go and live out their most perverted fantasies in game form. As has been stated before, vile content simply opens new doors to make some villains interesting in different ways and it helps quantify and define certain alternate styles of campaigns such as crime solving, combatting demonic cults, etc.

I would also like to bring up the point that 'vile' content was included as part of the core rules 1st edition D&D, and with the exception of the watered down dull days of 2E, these subjects have appeared repeatedly in both Dragon and Dungeon magazine. Designating articles or core books as vile simply gives people the option of being warned and not buying it if they don't want to be subjected to that material.

For those who get offended by it, I would suggest that you really don't know the game as well as you think you do, and you are too easily offended.

 

[Dr. NRG]

If and only if there are enough people offended by its inclusion in the "regular" material to justify removing it. Also, if and only if there is enough of a market for "vile" to support a product line.

I'll draw an analogy. If I am offended by the concept of, say, summoning extra-planar beings (for whatever reason - it need not be relevant), should WoTC make a new line of products that include all of the information about extra-planar summoning and remove anything related from subsequent releases of their core books? After all, I am a consumer of their products, and I am offended by the inclusion of this material, right? The answer is clearly no, they should not modify their products this way. It bears consideration why the answer is no.

What I fear here is an attempt to remove a piece of the gaming environment, segregating it into a separate line. I believe the market is pretty small as is, and producing a line of products that will appeal only to an even smaller sub-segment has proven (historically) usually to be a bad idea for a large one-size-fits-all company -- thus the d20 licensing agreement.

If both of the conditions above (enough people offended, enough support for a product line) are not met, I would argue that the content should continue to be included in Dragon, Dungeon, and whatever other products WoTC thinks are appropriate. People can (and will) bitch if this happens. That said, people can (and will) bitch anyway. Some people may choose not to subscribe to the magazines if vile content is included. That said, people can and will choose not to subscribe if it's not included, too.

The issue for WoTC is a practical one, not a moral one. Which path will, in the end, bring them more money? Find the answer to that question and you can guess what they're going to do next.

NRG

 

[Maerdwyn]

Yes and Yes.

I would prefer the "Vile" be kept out of any product aimed at the whole of the D&D market, which includes younger kids.

 

[Anthony Valterra]

Folks,

Please note I am posting from home so although I can never shed my WotC link please keep in mind that this is me as a private person not me as a WotC person.

I find this thread interesting. Bit of history - when the Book of Vile Darkness arrived I read it and said, "nice rules set, now where's the vileness?" Needless to say alot of people looked at me a bit crosseyed after that. "Vile" and "Mature" are very much in the eyes of the beholder (so are disintegration rays but that's a different topic). WotC, as most of you have surmised, is going to put out about one product per year in the arena of more mature material. I don't think we will do more then that and there are certain realms that we just won't touch. In addition, the level of "vileness" or maturity (however you want to quantify it) will never get beyond what you saw in BoVD.

So here's the question. DC created Vertigo to handle comics that were too mature for its standard line. What if a d20 company arose with solid game designers and top notch people that focused on a mature gaming line. Now when I say mature I don't mean salacious - I mean mature - like Vertigo. Sort of a medeival Hellblazer if you like.

A) Do you think there would be an audience?
B) Would you buy it?
C) If you supported such a line would you also evangelize it (let people know that it was out there and that it was cool)?
D) Would you defend it (there will be people who will proclaim the death of gaming if such a line were to come into existence)?
E) And finally, would you participate (post ideas, drawings, stories, etc. on a website, network with other players, help develop codes of conduct and ethics for play etc. )?

Anthony Valterra

 

[Emirikol]

Sure, people would buy it, but only if they knew that it was a subset of WOTC. I mean that with seriousness. I'm no longer partial to the numbers game of sales, so it's hard to say if it could succeed though.

Em

 

[MarauderX]

Yes. PG-13. NC-17. whatever. like a store clerk is gonna check IDs on books.

 

[The Sigil]

Folks,

Please note I am posting from home so although I can never shed my WotC link please keep in mind that this is me as a private person not me as a WotC person.

I find this thread interesting. Bit of history - when the Book of Vile Darkness arrived I read it and said, "nice rules set, now where's the vileness?" Needless to say alot of people looked at me a bit crosseyed after that. "Vile" and "Mature" are very much in the eyes of the beholder (so are disintegration rays but that's a different topic). WotC, as most of you have surmised, is going to put out about one product per year in the arena of more mature material. I don't think we will do more then that and there are certain realms that we just won't touch. In addition, the level of "vileness" or maturity (however you want to quantify it) will never get beyond what you saw in BoVD.

So here's the question. DC created Vertigo to handle comics that were too mature for its standard line. What if a d20 company arose with solid game designers and top notch people that focused on a mature gaming line. Now when I say mature I don't mean salacious - I mean mature - like Vertigo. Sort of a medeival Hellblazer if you like.

Sure you put in enough disclaimers there?

Now to the questions you posed...

A) Do you think there would be an audience?

Judging by the response on this board, yes.

B) Would you buy it?

No. Not my style.

C) If you supported such a line would you also evangelize it (let people know that it was out there and that it was cool)?

Since the answer to part "B" was "no," I guess this is irrelevant fro me. That said, I do actively "evangelize" products and lines that I find good - at least among my players.

D) Would you defend it (there will be people who will proclaim the death of gaming if such a line were to come into existence)?

Would I defend its right to exist? Yes. Would I defend the material being published as being of acceptable moral fiber? Probably not. There are many things I find objectionable that I will defend their right to exist - but this in no way implies moral defense of the contents thereof... merely the "right" to freedom of the press/speech will be defended by me.

E) And finally, would you participate (post ideas, drawings, stories, etc. on a website, network with other players, help develop codes of conduct and ethics for play etc. )?

Help develop codes of conduct and ethics for "where the line is" between "Core" and "Vile"? Certainly. Help develop the "darker line" once it is out? No.

Good, thought-provoking questions, Anthony.

--The Sigil