Shouldn't we wait until passing judgement?

[Glyfair]

When 3rd edition came out, there was just as much of an uproar. People were predicting the death of D&D all over the place.

Going back to 1999, one of the earliest news bits (2nd day of the site) on Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D News site was the text of a message from Gary Gygax.

* Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:59:42 -0500
From: Gary & Gail Gygax
Subject: 3E D&D Game

Greetings, Seekers

I read all the postings on the Digest for the 6-7 August list with some interest. My first assignment for WotC/TSR is to *critique* the new rules As I haven't had the opportunity to sit down and read them as a whole, all the FAQ material and speculation based thereon seem pretty meaningless. This is a game whole that must be judged only when it can be read, and *played*, as such.

While I find a certain sympathy with the comments from many, and those of Nathanael D. Wentz in particular, I must say that there is also a good deal of pessimistic opinion therein that I believe should be left aside for later. That is, how about giving the game a chance before judging/condemning it?

Another thing: Over the past three years I have had the opportunity to become reasonably well acquainted with Peter Adkison. In my opinion he is, to put it mildly, a great guy. He is indeed a D&D gamer. While a lot of people like to snipe at success, this is a very negative and foolish attitude. After all, don't we all want to succeed? Of course, and we should praise and emulate, not attack, those who achieve something meritorious. Maybe some here, as in the "industry at large", think it chic to criticize the MtG CCG. Sure sounds like sour grapes from here. As far as I am concerned it was and is a masterful stroke of game design--as a lot more people than those who play RPGs will agree. The POKEMON CCG is likewise genius! Credit where it is due, please.

It is now up to RPG publishers, and *players*, to get out there and convert the unwashed CCG masses to the true gaming faith, of course. Stop grousing that there are now millions more potential converts around and get to proselytizing!

Lastly, I think that WotC/TSR is a company that is concerned with the opinions of the fans, you and I. This is pretty well supported by the material posted in the FAQs here from them, no? This likely means that what the *majority* of participants want will be given in the game. And, as Nathanael D. Wentz pointed out, those of us who find the material not "right" can indeed exercise the DM's purview and "correct" the system...

(^_^)

Gary

 

[Greatwyrm]

I have seen a few people on this and other boards declaring their hate for the new edition and their intentions to not buy the 4e books.

Honestly, isn't it a little too soon to be declaring this? It's been barely over a week since 4e was announced.

Change the "4"s to "3"s or "2"s and you can copy and paste that in about 30% of all threads about D&D. Every time a new edition comes out, the sky starts falling and everyone goes for each others' throats. Aren't we all taking this a bit too seriously for a hobby where we roll dice and pretend to kill things?

f4anboi

And we've already got something as annoying as T$R. I don't think you coined it, Devyn, but yours was the one that sent me over the edge.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Mouseferatu, I know it's your job to support WotC's party line, but my opinion is my own.

Moderator/
It is rude to ascribe motives to other people; why should you have a monopoly on having your own opinion?

Our patience on rudeness is thin at the moment. See you in 3 days.

 

[delericho]

I think it's valid to be excited about the upcoming edition. I think it's valid to be worried about the upcoming edition. It's even valid to be excited and worried about the upcoming edition at the same time, I think.

I'm not sure it's sensible to declare that 4e is the best thing ever, or to declare that 4e is an abomination, since we don't know enough about the content to make that sort of an assessment. On the other hand, it is valid to declare that you will/won't buy it, even at this point - it's your money to do with as you see fit.

However, I do think it's valid to express a negative reaction to the specific changes that are made as and when the information about those changes becomes available (although it is very easy to slip into hyperbole when doing so). If you don't like the notion that gnomes are no longer a core race, then surely it's valid to say so? If you actually liked the magic item 'Christmas tree', then commenting about it's removal must be valid, no? It's also valid, I think, to say that you object to a particular change so strongly that you now won't buy the game - again, it's your money to do with as you see fit.

Oh, but it's probably too early to declare that any particular change won't work for the game as a whole. (Or, conversely, that it will work for the game as a whole.) To know that, you'd need to know much more about the system as a whole.

All IMO, of course.

Oh, and for the record, my stance: I'm both excited and worried about the mechanical changes in the new edition. A lot of what I've heard worries me, but I remain optimistic that the WotC designers know what they're doing, and the system will therefore be an improvement.

 

[Tharen the Damned]

I think it's valid to be excited about the upcoming edition. I think it's valid to be worried about the upcoming edition. It's even valid to be excited and worried about the upcoming edition at the same time, I think.

That my friend is exactely how I feel at the moment.
It is almost like before Christmas. You are exited about the upcoming presents, worried that you won't get the presents you "ordered" from Santa (or as it is in Germany: from the Christkind). You try to get an early sneak peek at the presents under the Christmas Tree and then try to determine the what you will get from the shape of the parcels.

 

[Shadeydm]

Moderator/
It is rude to ascribe motives to other people; why should you have a monopoly on having your own opinion?

Our patience on rudeness is thin at the moment. See you in 3 days.

Wow, trigger finger itch much?

 

[Shadeydm]

Frankly it sure looks to me like there are a lot more people here tripping over themselves to get in line and praise WotC for each little snippet released for 4E than there are critics. Yet its the critics who are getting the most abuse and the fanboys who are blindly declaring 4E the greatest thing ever with out knowing much of anything about it. So I think the rushing to judgement needs to be applied to both sides of the great 4E debate my friend.

 

[Fifth Element]

Frankly it sure looks to me like there are a lot more people here tripping over themselves to get in line and praise WotC for each little snippet released for 4E than there are critics. Yet its the critics who are getting the most abuse and the fanboys who are blindly declaring 4E the greatest thing ever with out knowing much of anything about it. So I think the rushing to judgement needs to be applied to both sides of the great 4E debate my friend.

I really don't see that. Some critics are getting the most abuse because their critique amounts to "this game sucks, and you're a sucker if you even think about buying it." Reasonable objections to specific things (since we only know a few specific things) are generally not met with harsh responses. Claims that Wizards lied to us, that this is obviously just a cash grab, that only anime-loving, WoW-playing f4nboys would enjoy this new game, on the other hand, are not met kindly.

 

[Prophet2b]

I really don't see that. Some critics are getting the most abuse because their critique amounts to "this game sucks, and you're a sucker if you even think about buying it." Reasonable objections to specific things (since we only know a few specific things) are generally not met with harsh responses. Claims that Wizards lied to us, that this is obviously just a cash grab, that only anime-loving, WoW-playing f4nboys would enjoy this new game, on the other hand, are not met kindly.

Along with that, I'm not seeing very many people actually saying, "I'm going to love this new system!" or anything along those lines, even those of us who (at the moment) plan on buying it.

Rather, the majority of comments seem to be, "If they do 'this' then I think it'll be awesome" and "This tidbit of information seems to suggest x, which would be sweet!"

The atmosphere seems to be more that of a little kid who's been told by his parents that in a week there's a really big surprise that will be waiting for him in the living room, and now he's trying to puzzle out just what that big surprise could be from the little hints they've dropped. He doesn't love it, yet. But boy is not knowing what it is just making him ancy with anticipation!

 

[ShinHakkaider]

If someone comes to ENWorld and says "D&D sucks" that's trolling. If someone posts to a thread about topic X saying "X sucks" that's threadcrapping. I believe overwhelmingly negative posts about 4e in the 4e sub-forum should be regarded in the same light.

Okay I understand now.

Difference in opinion = bad. Agreeing with opinion = good.

Got it.

I dont see anyone here with an overwhelmingly negative post. Unless your definintion of overwhelmingly differs from mine, which I'm guessing it does.

For me overwhelmingly negative would be like when the HEAT guys (rabid Hal Jordan fans) threatened Ron Marz (the writer of Green Lantern at the time and his kid). THAT's overwhelmingly negative.

No one here is even threatening physical violence to the 4E books much less people. Some of people have a specific issue with WOTC concerning Dungeon & Dragon Magazine. Some people here think that WOTC's handling of the 4E reveal was a little dishonest. Some of us feel that we've supportted the hobby by buying the books instead of stealing them, by supportting the FLGS and D&D, just to have WOTC turnaround and say thanks but all that stuff you just bought can't be used with the new edition. Tough noogies! But hey buy our NEW PRODUCT and all of the NEW splatbooks! Because it's BETTER! and NEW!!!!

People bringing up the video game anologies are just not getting the point either. I owned a PS, when the PS2 came out I bought one. I was able to play my PS games on the PS2 as well as the new games. FOr me that was a major selling point. If that wasnt the case I would not have bought a PS2 no matter how new and shiny it was. I recently bought a PS3, it plays my PS & PS2 games. That was a big selling point for me as well. The same thing with my Wii, it plays my Gamecube games. As you can tell I spend a fair amount of money on my entertainment so the money is less of an issue than it is the feeling that I'll be able to use what I bought previously on a new system.

The reason I lurk on the 4E boards is to find out more about 4E. Right now I have no intention of upgrading. Too many things about it are different from 3.5 and FOR ME there was very little about 3.5 that was actually broken. Alot of what I hear people complaining about is subjective (dislike of AoO's, Vancian Spell casting, Confirming Crits, etc..) and can be with a little tweaking be changed. 4E (at this point, because what dave noonan and Mike Mearls stressed in thier most recent podcast, things / rules can change at any moment) seems to getting rid of alot of sacred cows, if too many of those sacred cows get slaughterd then youre left with veggie burgers. Now that's great if you like veggie / soy burgers, but it aint meat. And if you like meat, that might be a problem, know what I'm sayin'?

I bought alot of prewritten adventures because one of the problems with being a 35 year old adult with a family is that you have to work, sometimes long hours to support said family and what ever other hobbies you have. I dont have the time or the motivation to write adventures from scratch anymore. Prewritten stuff I can read an modify a bit for my group and run. It's easier for me to that than to build from scratch and right now to convert something like AOW or ST to 4E looks like it's going to be a nightmare. Never mind the other books that would never see use.

Look, just because you like something doesnt exempt it from abuse and critique. I know. I think 3.5 is fine as is and look at the amount of people on this board who tend to crap all over it. It's bad enough to get it from the "old school" crowd and the C&C D00d's, but to get it from the people that supposedly like the system? Whatever. I want a reason to like 4E, but so far nothing. It's early yet still so for every rabid fanboy chomping at the bit to crap all over 3.5 at the slightest wiff of something new, there's someone like me who is going to stick with his old friend 3.5 and watch 4E with suspicion. Because I know something that the lot of you seem to be forgetting. Gamers are a fickle bunch. Brutally fickle. The same D00ds who so blithely dismiss those of us who are suspect of 4E are going to be the biggest most and most obnoxious critics of 4E in about 4 years or so. Theyre going to be the first ones crying about "too many splatbooks" "this is broken" "I'm going back to 3.5" Blah, blah, blah.

You know this. The fact that some of you are so quick to jump ship so quickly, the years of posts of people complaining about things that were not system problems but defective end user issues, it's all here (barring another server / board crash). We'll see in four years or so. For now though, I'll wait and see what this 4E thing is all about and as people here are allowed to voice the things that they are excited about, I think that people who have issues with 4E should be allowed to voice those as issues as well. Me alot of what I'm hearing I'm not liking from the point that it looks like I REALLY wont be able to use alot of my 3.5 stuff with 4E. If I werent so heavily invested in 3.5, some of this stuff might be interesting, but still nothing is written in stone until the books are actually printed and in the stores...