Sigil, planar cities, 4E and older editions

There's many Permanent Portals across Sigil, where many of the significant trade routes are from.
This thread is discussing planar locations as they are described in the 4E Manual of the Planes. Per the Sigil entry:

4E Manual of the Planes said:
Some portals don’t cooperate with the commercially minded, however. Many don’t linger long enough to become well known, and some don’t even lead to the same place twice in a row. Since nobody knows how to make or control Sigil’s unique portals, little can be done to improve the situation.

Granted it says "Some" portals, but the impression given is definitely one of portal impermanence and lack of control over the portals' size, location or destination. Some further quotes:

4E Manual of the Planes said:
Prices [in the Grand Bazaar] can vary wildly, from dirt cheap (for merchants with an unexpected overstock) to many times the normal value (for goods in sudden short supply, due to a faulty portal or a band of planar marauders).
Emphasis mine.

4E Manual of the Planes said:
Travelers in Sigil who are seeking a way out often find what they need at Tivvum’s Antiquities, a tower rising above the bustle of the Market Ward.
And so on.

Although the book never states definitively either way if there are permanent portals, the very strong impression given is that there are not. It would appear that the locations, destinations and keys of Sigil's portals change somewhat frequently and without notice.
 

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Although the book never states definitively either way if there are permanent portals, the very strong impression given is that there are not. It would appear that the locations, destinations and keys of Sigil's portals change somewhat frequently and without notice.

This is not particularly different from the impression I got from 2e Planescape.

In PS, the portals are temporary, but the frequency of appearance/disappearance/change varies a lot (or at the whim of the Lady of Pain). Some portals may remain stable for years before suddenly changing, while others are different every time they're used.

Knowledge of portals, particularly consistent ones of decent size and to convenient locations, is extremely valuable. Imagine a merchant who uses a fairly stable portal in a very out-of-the-way location, versus one who risks an unproven portal to happens to be in a more convenient location. Knowledge of a stable portal to a useful location is a major competitive advantage and something that would not be shared or sold lightly.
 

The PS Campaign Setting which has most of the information on Sigil, goes into detail about portals and there's 3 categories: Permanent, Shifting and Temporary. The control of all portals is attributed to the Lady of Pain.

The 2e sources on how the economy and maintenance of Sigil are the only relevant sources since they explain it all. In 4e things like economy are hardly relevant to the core assumptions of the game, so it doesn't matter where water comes from or where waste goes to.
 

And Sigil has no good way of reliably bringing in food. Or growing food locally. With the gateways changing all the time they can't get to a regular market, or get to markets during the right seasons.

They wrote themselves into a corner on this one in 4e, because they omitted any mention of the Gatetowns and their permenant portals to Sigil. A lot of standard, regular trade passed into the city that way, especially gatetowns like Tradegate. With no mention of those places in 4e, and no mention of replacements for the role they provided, things are rather up in the air as far as how the city works in that regard.

My advice (outside of not using the 4e cosmology in the first place) is to either bring those places back in some fashion, scattered throughout the planes with permenant portals rather than arranged in the Outlands which seemingly no longer exist in any form, or create replacements for those places in whatever places in the 4e planes as fits your campaign.

And by permenant, I don't mean the portals are always open. They connect to the same spot in Sigil and their other ends, and they open either with a specific gate key, or open on their own on some sort of frequency that trade operates around.


Waste is also a problem. 250,000 beings (some of them size Large) eating all that food produce a lot of poop. Where does it go? Maybe there are mulch caverns beneath the city? I can't (or refuse to) imagine the smell.

Portals. You have trash, you dump it through any random portal you can get away with as long as someone from the other side doesn't walk through and bash your skull in. Random, periodic portals not next to your kip are probably a good choice.

You can also, depending on the part of the city you're in, just dump it in the street and either not care about it, or have someone take care of it for you. The Ditch in the Lower Ward on the border of the Hive, near the Shattered Temple District is a popular spot for just dumping trash, waste, bodies, etc. The Dabus also keep the streets relatively clear in their own way, and dump stuff through portals to Quasielemental Ooze (retcon as desired for the 4e cosmology).

Water is much less of a problem because

It rains. All. The. Time.

The city has its own weather system, though it's up for debate if it's entirely natural, or a magical property of the city itself, or if it's a result of portals opening up to draw in moisture, etc.

The rain isn't the purest thing by any means, because of the amount of soot and smoke from the Lower Ward and other places, so it's mildly acidic, but you won't die of dehydration if you're not picky. The Ditch in the Lower Ward periodically connects to the River Oceanus (retcon as needed for 4e cosmology) which is as fresh as you'll get in terms of drinking water, and presumably water is drawn forth from other portals to water dominated planes or planar pathways like Oceanus, etc.

Also, Sigil is really sparsely populated.

It's not a uniform population distribution. The Hive is packed to the gills in total squalor (except for the Slags which... well... the Kadyx lives there). The Lower Ward is fairly dense. The Lady's Ward (and especially some districts therein) is pretty light.

And for your calculations, the torus isn't closed, and the city's dimensions are not stable. It shrinks and grows at The Lady's whimsy, with buildings or blocks even appearing or vanishing as the Dabus shuffle things around according to well, who knows why they do that.
 

My advice (outside of not using the 4e cosmology in the first place) is to either bring those places back in some fashion, scattered throughout the planes with permenant portals rather than arranged in the Outlands which seemingly no longer exist in any form, or create replacements for those places in whatever places in the 4e planes as fits your campaign.

I have decided taking 4E cosmology a shot, of course, adapting. What existed before it's still there. Gehenna is there (on that Astral soup), Yugoloths are there for sure and that Elemental Chaos is a subjective place bordering all elemental planes.

I just got rid of Ethereal.

Portals. You have trash, you dump it through any random portal you can get away with as long as someone from the other side doesn't walk through and bash your skull in (...) The Dabus also keep the streets relatively clear in their own way, and dump stuff through portals to Quasielemental Ooze (retcon as desired for the 4e cosmology)./QUOTE]

That's how probably works yet on 4E.


And for your calculations, the torus isn't closed, and the city's dimensions are not stable. It shrinks and grows at The Lady's whimsy, with buildings or blocks even appearing or vanishing as the Dabus shuffle things around according to well, who knows why they do that.

That's one of the things that seem to have changed (not in my games, tho). Builds and blocks apperaring is now a property of Gloomwrought.

In fact, 4E designers did something I already did in my Planescape games: planar cities *seem* a bit more attractive... BUT the cost was removing some particularities from Sigil and giving to this other places, leaving Sigil as less interesting than before for people who don't know the city.

So far I think Sigil is left as 4E's Casablanca (which is very flattering, IMO) and a place where knowledge and obscure portals are found.

I hope DMGII at least fix it and fluff hint Sigil as a Special place (why so many portals? why even gods are forbidden? ), a key for something in the hole universe.
 

The PS Campaign Setting ...
... is not the topic of this thread.

I'm not trying to be rude here. But we're discussing Sigil as described in the 4E Manual of the Planes. Not how it used to be. Maybe the terminology and portal types you describe will be revived in DMG II or some other book, but at the moment they're just not relevant.


They wrote themselves into a corner on this one in 4e, because they omitted any mention of the Gatetowns and their permenant portals to Sigil.
It needs to be asked though: was it omission by accident (or word count) or by design? The Gatetowns make access to Sigil fairly safe and predictable. Maybe the 4E devs made a conscious decision to make Sigil hard to get to and hard to leave. They may have written themselves into a corner, but perhaps it's exactly the corner they want to be in.


You have trash, you dump it through any random portal you can get away with as long as someone from the other side doesn't walk through and bash your skull in. Random, periodic portals not next to your kip are probably a good choice.
That could work. Any portal to the Elemental Chaos is essentially an incinerator. Of course, if you empty your chamber pot on an Efreeti's head he would probably get cranky. :)

I sort of like the idea though of the sewer system being just thick with gelatinous cubes, carrion crawlers and similar "recyclers". :) Plus, you could have a colony of ghouls that feed off the corpses that come floating down the sewer-ways, and if the PCs killed the ghouls some authority figure (not the Lady of Pain though) might try to fine them for "Contributing to the befoulment of Sigil's water system." ;)


It rains. All. The. Time.

The city has its own weather system, though it's up for debate if it's entirely natural, or a magical property of the city itself, or if it's a result of portals opening up to draw in moisture, etc.
Not so much any more. Here's the new money quote on that topic:

Manual of the Planes said:
Sigil doesn’t have much of an environment ... It never gets extremely hot or extremely cold, it has no monsoons or tornados, and what does pass for weather just tends to make everything look gray and dingy. ... the inhabitants don’t have to worry about their houses surviving the next big storm ...
Sounds like there's a permanent fog or gloom, but not rain per se. Thematically I prefer a bit more variety, just so I have something to describe to my players, but that would be a "house rule" not the canon.

Ergo, you need a source of liquid water. Rain barrels won't get you anything. That's why I suggested massive cisterns beneath the streets that capture and recycle the waste water from the city. The cisterns could then be accessed via private pumps (in palaces, fine Inns and temples) or public wells (everywhere else).


The Hive is packed to the gills in total squalor (except for the Slags which... well... the Kadyx lives there). The Lower Ward is fairly dense. The Lady's Ward (and especially some districts therein) is pretty light.
To make the Hive "packed to the gills" you'd need to assume that The Lady's Ward or the Clerk's Ward are completely deserted.

But that's really neither here nor there; the main thrust of my comment on this point was directed at how how Wizards (regularly) throws out numbers without doing any checksums for "common sense" rationality. This is hardly unique to the Sigil description; you can find plenty of threads complaining about stuff like this. Wizard's propensity for handing out maps of towns with 15 buildings (and a population 350) is comic legend. This is the same problem, just in reverse. Using the numbers given by Wizards results in a Sigil with the population density of a 1/2 acre plot suburban McMansion development. Sigil either needs to be a lot smaller or the population quite a bit higher than 250,000 (I prefer the latter solution).

I did find an error in my math though. The proper area of Sigil in square miles is 72.5415923, which is equal to 187.881862 km^2. With a p of 250,000 that results in a population density of 1,330.6 p/km^2. That's still sort of sparse though, if you compare it with the cities given on my list. Even given population density disparity between Wards, you'd have to depopulate the "nice" Wards to the point of making them ghost towns to get the Lower Ward or Hive anywhere close to the building density pictured in the book.

Just by comparison, Sigil (by land area) is roughly the same size as Kolkata (which you probably know as "Calcutta"), but has just 1/20th (or 5%) of Kolkata's population. When I picture Sigil I imagine density on par with Kolkata as it more or less actually is, not 1/20th as dense. I would bump the population figure by 10x (minimum).


And for your calculations, the torus isn't closed, and the city's dimensions are not stable. It shrinks and grows at The Lady's whimsy ...
Not any more. The torus is closed and the dimensions are given on MotP pg. 27. There is no mention of the numbers changing.

Torus diameter (from outer wall to opposite outer wall): approx 6.4 miles.
Tube diameter (from street level to "directly above" street level): approx 1.5 miles.
Circumference (outer wall): approx 20 miles.

Surface Area of a Torus = A*C*4*pi^2, Where
A = Radius of the tube (i.e., 0.75 miles)
C = Radius from the center of the hole to the center of the torus tube (i.e., 2.45 miles)


Random Thought: In Sigil, you really do have to walk uphill in both directions.
 
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Not any more. The torus is closed and the dimensions are given on MotP pg. 27.

That's not 100% correct IMO. There was a topic about this some time ago and I don't remember Wotc confirming or denying it.

Having read the book and examined the picture I still think it's open in 4E, until Wotc says otherwise. I don't think they are really into geometry... ;)

I'm at work, anybody already asked their Q&A about this?
 
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I can see Sigil being the focus of the DMGII as a paragon level base setting, like Fallcrest in the DMGI.

In fact, I'm wondering if adventuring in the paragon level would be about exploring the Astral Sea and its domains.

Perhaps the DMGIII would be about the City of Brass and exploring the Elemental Chaos.
 

Perhaps the DMGIII would be about the City of Brass and exploring the Elemental Chaos.

It's my bet too.

Then it will be made clear that Sigil isn't special (He who rules Sigil, rules the multiverse) anymore, just a hub of quests. As I said before, I think somebody at Wotc has a special love for City of Brass and 1st edition, which is fine...

(kinda biase alert, beware)

...but there's the Lower Ward for exploring the Elemental Chaos. And, if we consider all 2E fluff for Sigil, there's no way to compare City of Brass to The Cage in therms of importance, unless from a strict personal taste from developers. (I'm gonna buy Hasbro and fix it! hehehe)

A city that's seems to be *nowhere* (as per 4E Motp map) must have something special, a place where gods can't enter must have a far more special purpose than any other city in multiverse.

That said, I hope DMGIII doesn't focus on COB but on some kinda of player's own demiplane / stronghold. That would be more appropriate, IMO.
 
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1. The oldest city in creation is City of Brass - kinda weird to me. Being Sigil the universe "microcosmos" wouldn't be more appropriate if it existed for a longer time? Wasn't the old view of Sigil a place which begin none could date? Some time ago I read on these boards that CoB was the cover for 1E MoTP, maybe it's some kinda of homage...
Nope, that's the Astral Plane:
260309230_b4f42a037a.jpg

The City of Brass is actually on the back cover of the 1E AD&D DMG, but I couldn't find a picture of that in Google Images, just of the front, which is a big red efreet fighting a party against a black background.
 

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