mroberon1972
First Post
Mobius said:
Actually, I use the human nature that seem the most common in human history. Laziness!
Least work for most gain seems to have always been the human way...
Sadly,
Mr. Oberon
Silly economics of DnD
- Thread starter bramadan
- Start date
Actually, I use the human nature that seem the most common in human history. Laziness!
Least work for most gain seems to have always been the human way...
Sadly,
Mr. Oberon
drnuncheon
Explorer
Re: Herald...
What is wrong with the item is that - assuming you're using wall of iron as your source - you get breastplates made out of crummy iron instead of breastplates made out of good steel.
If you're just loading ore in the top, then you're not even getting breastplates made of crummy iron, you're getting breastplates made of iron ore.
Now, if you made one that you loaded high-quality steel into, you might be on to something. The mage who made this would almost certainly need to be a smith, since the fabricate spell requires a Craft roll to make the finished product turn out right.
Also, 20 gp is not the proper raw material cost - the cost should be 1/3 of the finished product or 66 gp, 6 sp, 6 cp each. I'm not sure where you got 10% instead of 1/3.
The one thing I find telling is this statement, though: "don't bother me about market flooding. Just cut it to one per day or week and cut the cost accordingly." That's very important, because if there's not enough magically produced breastplates to flood the market and drive the price down, then there's not enough magically produced breastplates to have a significant effect on the economy - and that means that overall, things will stay the same. One guy with a Magic Breastplate-O-Matic is not going to change the face of armorsmithing across the world - it's only when the change becomes widespread that it's going to have a significant impact.
J
mroberon1972 said:
What is wrong with the item is that - assuming you're using wall of iron as your source - you get breastplates made out of crummy iron instead of breastplates made out of good steel.
If you're just loading ore in the top, then you're not even getting breastplates made of crummy iron, you're getting breastplates made of iron ore.
Now, if you made one that you loaded high-quality steel into, you might be on to something. The mage who made this would almost certainly need to be a smith, since the fabricate spell requires a Craft roll to make the finished product turn out right.
Also, 20 gp is not the proper raw material cost - the cost should be 1/3 of the finished product or 66 gp, 6 sp, 6 cp each. I'm not sure where you got 10% instead of 1/3.
The one thing I find telling is this statement, though: "don't bother me about market flooding. Just cut it to one per day or week and cut the cost accordingly." That's very important, because if there's not enough magically produced breastplates to flood the market and drive the price down, then there's not enough magically produced breastplates to have a significant effect on the economy - and that means that overall, things will stay the same. One guy with a Magic Breastplate-O-Matic is not going to change the face of armorsmithing across the world - it's only when the change becomes widespread that it's going to have a significant impact.
J
Chroma
Explorer
SHARK said:
I've always wanted to quote SHARK!
The thing is, there are also wizards and clerics (and worse!)in the campaign world that have the magical power to dramatically change all of society for the *worse*! The followers of the gods of chaos (the bad kind), disease, suffering and all the other ills that man struggle against are an active and divinely empowered force that, generally, runs counter to the ideas of life improvement and material progress, and they've got the power to do something about it. Magically lit cities and purified water sources become the primary targets of the gods of darkness and disease. How does this play into economic modelling?
In the real world there is nothing actively impeding the forward march of progress, but there certainly could be in a fantasy world, and that's certainly something that needs to be considered. Heck, the current economic system could be some kind of cold war between the forces of progress and entropy!
Any thoughts?
mroberon1972
First Post
drnuncheon...
Thanks for the update, the description is a little sketchy on the Fabricate spell. I always took it that it could refine base materials. Looking at it, perhaps your right... For a 5th level spell I might argue that is fairly pathetic, but that is not the issue.
All right, as it stands, you will need to insert good steel into the machine. Even then it reduces the time for armor cunstruction when it COULD take raw steel and make Full Plate. Then you really start getting an effect...
About the base material cost, I was looking at some other information. Sorry about that... You are correct about 1/3. But keep in mind, this only delays profit, not stop it.
Quote:
"The one thing I find telling is this statement, though: "don't bother me about market flooding. Just cut it to one per day or week and cut the cost accordingly." That's very important, because if there's not enough magically produced breastplates to flood the market and drive the price down, then there's not enough magically produced breastplates to have a significant effect on the economy - and that means that overall, things will stay the same. One guy with a Magic Breastplate-O-Matic is not going to change the face of armorsmithing across the world - it's only when the change becomes widespread that it's going to have a significant impact."
Now this is a good argument! All right, you are right. To do this he would have to cut profit down, and keep production up. The idea would have to spread also, over generations. Since a magic item tends not to break down unless broken, you could get a slow buildup of special magic items for this kind of work...
Mr. Oberon
Thanks for the update, the description is a little sketchy on the Fabricate spell. I always took it that it could refine base materials. Looking at it, perhaps your right... For a 5th level spell I might argue that is fairly pathetic, but that is not the issue.
All right, as it stands, you will need to insert good steel into the machine. Even then it reduces the time for armor cunstruction when it COULD take raw steel and make Full Plate. Then you really start getting an effect...
About the base material cost, I was looking at some other information. Sorry about that... You are correct about 1/3. But keep in mind, this only delays profit, not stop it.
Quote:
"The one thing I find telling is this statement, though: "don't bother me about market flooding. Just cut it to one per day or week and cut the cost accordingly." That's very important, because if there's not enough magically produced breastplates to flood the market and drive the price down, then there's not enough magically produced breastplates to have a significant effect on the economy - and that means that overall, things will stay the same. One guy with a Magic Breastplate-O-Matic is not going to change the face of armorsmithing across the world - it's only when the change becomes widespread that it's going to have a significant impact."
Now this is a good argument! All right, you are right. To do this he would have to cut profit down, and keep production up. The idea would have to spread also, over generations. Since a magic item tends not to break down unless broken, you could get a slow buildup of special magic items for this kind of work...
Mr. Oberon
mroberon1972
First Post
Chroma said:
Ohhhh..... I like this guy! He thinks BIG! He just gave us a new theme for a world!
Mr. Oberon
Col_Pladoh
Gary Gygax
Perhaps I am misreading things here, but it seems to me that a lot of the argument against a world setting that reflects the potential for logical magical effects on the societies is based on that the game rules won't facilitate.
Why allow the game system to cripple the campaign world? Alter the game rules to such extent as is necessary to produce the world that seems logical to you, and yields a setting you like best for the players PCs to adventure in.
As most of the magic concerned with society isn't likely to be the same used by characters in their derring-do, build additional material for the socio-economic magic that would enable the advances suggested. Those are logical in my view.
Again, I stress that clerics in a fantasy society with active deities would be many and critical to the operation of the sociaty. just as was the case in actual medieval history.
Cheerio,
Gary
Why allow the game system to cripple the campaign world? Alter the game rules to such extent as is necessary to produce the world that seems logical to you, and yields a setting you like best for the players PCs to adventure in.
As most of the magic concerned with society isn't likely to be the same used by characters in their derring-do, build additional material for the socio-economic magic that would enable the advances suggested. Those are logical in my view.
Again, I stress that clerics in a fantasy society with active deities would be many and critical to the operation of the sociaty. just as was the case in actual medieval history.
Cheerio,
Gary
LostSoul
Adventurer
I think that, if you want to maintain a 12th Century European feel but are bothered by the logical effects of magic on society, you come up with some reason why progress has been stalled. In my campaign, the forces of Evil! want to make sure that society does not experience that kind of growth. Evil loves misery.
This has become a key point in my campaign.
This has become a key point in my campaign.
I think some people are arguing that you _can't_ have a medieval-type society given the prevalence of magic in standard D&D, because some wizards & clerics are bound to use their magical powers in such a way as to change the nature of the society, creating mass saniutation, industrial production et al. I think this argument is completely wrong, as much as it would be wrong to say that a medieval society is the _only_ way to play D&D in. Why is it wrong? Some reasons:
1. Medieval-type society is not in fact a natural step along a continuum from primitive to modern. Rather, in our world it came about because of the _destruction_ of a much more civilised society: it is a post-apocalypse phenomenon.
2.Medieval society was one in which almost all of the effort of those in power - the rulers - went towards military power: knights, castles, heavy warhorses. Compare this with the Roman empire, which for most of its history had tiny armies and vast public works including functioning sewers, clean water delivery systems, bath houses etc.
3.The result of this is that the level of medieval battlefield/military technology is in fact MUCH HIGHER than the general technological level, and the D&D spells reflect this extremely well. If the society you're reflecting in your game is both civilised and reasonably high-magic, I reckon there should be as many non-military uses for magic as military ones. But for the medieval paradigm, it's the ability to kill things that matters.
As an example, my campaign has run for about 400 years game time, 16 years real-time. In that time the general technology level of the primary world, Ea, has progressed roughly from 1100AD to 1500AD, although a looming dark age may put an end to the nascent renaissance. Extrapolating Ea's history back in time from before the start of the campaign, there's roughly a 1:1 gameworld year/historical year correlation in tech level - 1000 years ago tech level was ca 100 AD, 2000 years ago 900 BC, and so on. In the 16 years/400 game-years I've run Ea, I've never seen any PC make a significant positive technological impact on the world - the only major impact was in fact a negative one, the PC god Thrin, god of knightly combat, altered the world's physical-factor to prevent the use of gunpowder and similar chemical technology, thus preserving the preeminence of the armoured knights he loves. And that's a Lawful Good PC! The less good-inclined ones are more inclined to just go around trashing everything. Hardly out of character for the medieval mindset, either.
Now, it IS possible to use magic to start an industrial revolution, given a kindly GM. But this is a function of mindset, not the nature of magic. Mark Twain covered this very well over a hundred years ago when he wrote "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court".
1. Medieval-type society is not in fact a natural step along a continuum from primitive to modern. Rather, in our world it came about because of the _destruction_ of a much more civilised society: it is a post-apocalypse phenomenon.
2.Medieval society was one in which almost all of the effort of those in power - the rulers - went towards military power: knights, castles, heavy warhorses. Compare this with the Roman empire, which for most of its history had tiny armies and vast public works including functioning sewers, clean water delivery systems, bath houses etc.
3.The result of this is that the level of medieval battlefield/military technology is in fact MUCH HIGHER than the general technological level, and the D&D spells reflect this extremely well. If the society you're reflecting in your game is both civilised and reasonably high-magic, I reckon there should be as many non-military uses for magic as military ones. But for the medieval paradigm, it's the ability to kill things that matters.
As an example, my campaign has run for about 400 years game time, 16 years real-time. In that time the general technology level of the primary world, Ea, has progressed roughly from 1100AD to 1500AD, although a looming dark age may put an end to the nascent renaissance. Extrapolating Ea's history back in time from before the start of the campaign, there's roughly a 1:1 gameworld year/historical year correlation in tech level - 1000 years ago tech level was ca 100 AD, 2000 years ago 900 BC, and so on. In the 16 years/400 game-years I've run Ea, I've never seen any PC make a significant positive technological impact on the world - the only major impact was in fact a negative one, the PC god Thrin, god of knightly combat, altered the world's physical-factor to prevent the use of gunpowder and similar chemical technology, thus preserving the preeminence of the armoured knights he loves. And that's a Lawful Good PC! The less good-inclined ones are more inclined to just go around trashing everything. Hardly out of character for the medieval mindset, either.
Now, it IS possible to use magic to start an industrial revolution, given a kindly GM. But this is a function of mindset, not the nature of magic. Mark Twain covered this very well over a hundred years ago when he wrote "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court".
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As far as spells go, in 1e/2e Walls of conjured/invoked Iron, Stone etc could explicitly be dispelled by Dispel Magic, just as summoned creatures can be. AFAIK that's still the case in 3e - that's how I'll run it, anyway, should it come up. Given the complexity of a suit of full plate armour, I'd expect it would take at least a Limited Wish to create such a thing from nothing. You can use Fabricate to create your breastplates if you already have the high-quality non-magical steel and a 9th level Wizard with a very good Armoursmith Craft skill. That isn't going to destroy your game's medieval society, though.
mroberon1972
First Post
S'mon said:
A limited wish? Ouch... I figure a limited wish should be just a wee bit more powerful than this... Perhaps 2-4 suits of armor. But I digress...
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