Siloing: Good or Bad?

[bardolph]

Can't speak to HERO, but I'm not actually sure GURPS is substantially worse than 4E; if GURPS had something like the Character Builder (maybe it does, I haven't played in a long time), I'll bet chargen would be a snap.

Perhaps. With my gaming group, creating a D&D 4e character takes from 30 minutes to two hours. With GURPS (4E), it's 4-8 hours easily.

Another advantage of silos is that each individual decision during character creation is much easier to make. In D&D 4e, the character-building process unfolds over time -- a good thing IMHO.

 

[AllisterH]

3-8 hours???

What point value are you guys using that would cause so much deliberation on how you spread those points?

 

[bardolph]

3-8 hours???

What point value are you guys using that would cause so much deliberation on how you spread those points?

100. Most of it is the learning curve of reading the whole Characters book to understand everything that is possible.

These are casual gamers. They don't come prepared. They don't read the rules in advance. They show up, and they ask "so what are we playing again? Gerps?"

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You may have never played 1e but you rolled on three charts to generate your first level M-U spells. I don't recall exactly what they were called (perhaps someone could step and provide there names) but it was something like roll on a offense list, a defense list and a utility list. It really is not all that breaking in any form.

I think Mike Mearls even mentioned this as an "old" example of siloing.

 

[Derren]

You seem exclusively fixated on combat Derren. What about the earlier editions of Star Wars where it was necessitated that you spend all your points in being a pilot to have any chance of doing anything well with a ship.

Because combat<->everything else is the most common silo and always thrown around as example in here.

And still, when you build a 100% combat character you should ask yourself if you would not be more happy with Descent ot a other game focusing 100% on combat than with an full rpg which also includes other parts you don't enjoy.

 

[Minigiant]

To me siloing is good, it's just that most games that do it don't go far enough. Siloing allows/forces your party to be a team during every aspect of the game. Since D&D has transformed into a team game, siloing is great there. In 4E everyone is involved in getting tha audience with the king, traveling to the dungeon, and all the fights inbetween and after.

Games without siloing allow for a character to overspecialize or be extreme generalists. This is fine in some setting and games. In some setting, both would make little sense after a certian "level" as those characters would rarely become PCs unless forced. It would work with starting characters but after a while you'd think Axe MsHack would learned a skill by now and Booky Booknerd would have learned to fight or both of the them would be dead or unable to finsh a quest.

Personally I would have made more silos in 4E. Mostly separate the skill and movement utilities into their own siloes.

 

[Garmorn]

Games without siloing allow for a character to overspecialize or be extreme generalists. This is fine in some setting and games. In some setting, both would make little sense after a certian "level" as those characters would rarely become PCs unless forced. It would work with starting characters but after a while you'd think Axe MsHack would learned a skill by now and Booky Booknerd would have learned to fight or both of the them would be dead or unable to finsh a quest.

This sound very accurate. If I was playing SF game I would want a GURP type system. Tech based adventures tend to be more rounded skill wise the say a medieval one. It is more than just feel, the very tech and daily routine support a more specialized approach.

 

[Minigiant]

This sound very accurate. If I was playing SF game I would want a GURP type system. Tech based adventures tend to be more rounded skill wise the say a medieval one. It is more than just feel, the very tech and daily routine support a more specialized approach.

Yes, the setting determines whether siloing makes sense. In a space fantasy games, you'd expect every non-novice to who how to pilot, fight, and converse. In a medieval fatansy game where monsters and armies attack kingdoms a noticable amount, it would be hard to find a wimpy librarian over level 5 adventureing.

Only certain setting allow you to "walk straight out the magic school tower an epic mage who has one spell that kills deeties."

 

[Reigan]

Because combat<->everything else is the most common silo and always thrown around as example in here.

And still, when you build a 100% combat character you should ask yourself if you would not be more happy with Descent ot a other game focusing 100% on combat than with an full rpg which also includes other parts you don't enjoy.

Or you can leave the dice in the box and just roleplay and still kick but when it comes to combat.

 

[Gort]

Or you can leave the dice in the box and just roleplay and still kick butt when it comes to combat.

To be honest, I like this approach a lot. I wish things like diplomacy and intimidation were entirely up to the what the player says, with a bit of circumstances thrown in as well.

Diplomacy skills, charisma, intelligence and wisdom scores, those can all go. Leave the NPC reactions up to the DM. Have a "magic" stat to determine cleric and wizard spells.

TL, DR: Get your rules out of my roleplay! Leave rules for combat and adventuring, no rules for talking.