D&D 5E Silvery Barbs, how would you fix it? Does it need fixing?

[Dausuul]

Honestly, I can imagine this ending up being declared a trap spell. You're using a slot, a known or prepared spell, and your reaction for a 60% chance (or so) to change an outcome in your favor. I think they added the granting of advantage to the spell because otherwise no one would ever take or cast it. Even the 95% chance to negate a crit is only situationally useful and the cost is still very high. If I can get my spellcasters to use this instead of counterspell in a round, I'm thrilled.

I would absolutely use it. Even if the only thing it could do was force an enemy to re-roll a save. That is an incredibly good use of a 1st-level slot.

Say I cast a 4th-level spell and the target makes their save. Normally, it would cost me another 4th-level slot and a regular action, on my next turn, to try again. Now it costs a 1st-level slot and a reaction, on the same turn! That's bananas. Any caster using single-target debuffs should want this spell. The other effects are just gravy.

 

[Mort]

The point of the post was to not compare it with shield.

This isn't a defensive spell. It is an overpowered offensive spell.

The point of the post was to gauge strength.

Shield is a strong first level spell so is a good point of comparison.

I stand by my position that this spell is likely strong but not overpowered.

 

[Dausuul]

The point of the post was to gauge strength.

Shield is a strong first level spell so is a good point of comparison.

Except that mimicking shield is about the single worst use there is for this spell. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a pickup truck on the basis of their ability to transport a sofa.

 

[darjr]

Shield blocks 25% of swings per round (not hits, swings). So it's power is hyperbolic in AC. You use it and it works (barring surprise attack bonus).

Barbs' math is different. Barbs is more efficient when the original chance of success was low, like shield it is a win-more effect. Barbs when the roll succeeds on a 2+ is inefficient; when it succeeds only on a 20 it is highly efficient.

If the success chance was 50/50, Barbs is as good as having had a +5 defence; but unlike shield you have to pay for (some) failures.

If the success chance was 25%, having Barbs around makes it a 6% chance; about a +4 defence. But 1/4 uses are wasted (compared to a reaction +4). If the success chance was 75%, with Barbs it is 56%; again a +4. Here, however, 3/4 of uses are wasted.

At 90%/10% it is a +2.

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The real beauty is two fold.

1. You can use it to protect others, including from crits. Crits are 5% chance, so the reroll makes it really really rare. Making it a miss is a bonus.
2. Eating legendary resists. The cost of legendary resists is action economy. Even with LR trumping it, getting an extra chance to force a LR per round is big.

Fishing for a use of LR, that it can do

 

[Mort]

Except that mimicking shield is about the single worst use there is for this spell. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a pickup truck on the basis of their ability to transport a sofa.

That's not the comparison. The question is, is this spell as good at what it tries to do as shield is at what it tries to do.

My point is, sure it seems strong, but it doesn't seem overpowered.

 

[abirdcall]

The point of the post was to gauge strength.

Shield is a strong first level spell so is a good point of comparison.

I stand by my position that this spell is likely strong but not overpowered.

Why aren't we comparing it to find familiar then?

 

[abirdcall]

That's not the comparison. The question is, is this spell as good at what it tries to do as shield is at what it tries to do.

My point is, sure it seems strong, but it doesn't seem overpowered.

You say it is strong but not overpowered but you aren't actually engaging in the conversation.

I have said it is very overpowered and gave banishment as an example of this.

 

[Mort]

Why aren't we comparing it to find familiar then?

Because find familiar is a low cost ritual spell used for a completely different purpose?

Shield is a combat spell used for the purpose of winning encounters, just like this spell.

 

[Mort]

You say it is strong but not overpowered but you aren't actually engaging in the conversation.

I have given my reasoning in several posts.

I have said it is very overpowered and gave banishment as an example of this.

So let's go over this specific instance:

This spell allows for a better chance of banishment to be successful by forcing disadvantage on the saving throw. How much better? If I remember the math it gives banishment about a 15-25% better chance to succeed.

That's pretty good, but it's not certain, it just gives a better chance of success - at the cost of a reaction and a spell slot in addition to the banishment slot.

It does not overcome legendary resistance and it means the caster won't get to use shield, endure elements, counterspell etc.

Also it is "good" because banishment is good (though I personally think banishment, while good, is overrated) meaning it has to be part of a combo to be truly effective - that lessens it's stature.

Another way to look at it's impact (you did, after all, call it the best spell currently in the game) - does it have the potential to win an encounter(like sleep at lower levels, like hypnotic pattern, like banishment on a solo monster)? By itself, clearly not. Paired with a spell like banishment? It will aid but not ensure.

With all that - yes, seems like it will be strong, but I'm still not seeing overpowered.

 

[abirdcall]

Because find familiar is a low cost ritual spell used for a completely different purpose?

Shield is a combat spell used for the purpose of winning encounters, just like this spell.

You just said that the comparison was with another good 1st level spell. Find familiar is one. Which can also be used to win encounters.

How about Healing Word? That is used to win encounters. Why aren't we talking about that?

We are talking about Shield because people are comparing the defensive value of barbs to shield and are coming out saying it is balanced. Which I agree. As a defensive spell it is good but not overpowered.

As an offensive spell though? It is completely overpowered. Easily the best spell in the game.