D&D 5E Silvery Barbs, how would you fix it? Does it need fixing?

[Stalker0]

On the other hand in terms of statistical power SB is most powerful when the save is hard to make. It is a more useful spell when the roll is hard to make. However, that does not happen nearly as often as making an easy save. Most of the time a hard save will be failed and you will not have the opportunity to use SB.

You are treating this like a weakness of the spell, when its one of its greatest strengths.

The fact that I don't need to spend resources with SB until I actually need to is a major strength of the spell. If the monsters are failing my saves left and right, wonderful... I have a whole bunch of spell slots for other purposes. But if they don't, then having the spell gives me a solid increase in my chance to push that a key high level control spell through.

further, nothing forces me to use SB. If I think the monster's save is just too good....I can always choose not to use the spell on that monster, and save it for the next one. Just like having a monster with fire immunity doesn't suddenly invalidate fireball for the entire day....neither does having a monster with really good saves invalidate SB.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

it should be pointed out that Silvery Barbs is a really good spell for NPC enemy mages to have. IT makes counterspell worth having to counter an enemy caster using Silvery Barbs to force a PC to reroll a save.

 

[Captain Panda]

To be fair, if your playing a 1st level wizard.... sleep is one of the strongest spells in the game. The reason it doesn't get more attention is sleep scales very poorly, and 1st to 2nd levels tend to fly by pretty quickly, and so the spell's period of dominance is pretty minor. Frankly if I was running a campaign that going to be 1st level the whole time....I would consider an adjustment to sleep. Meanwhile spells like shield and silvery barbs scale exceptionally well, and are relevant all the way up to 20th level.

All entirely true. My point was simply that if you focus entirely on the spell at its peak value, a lot of spells can be made to sound far worse than they are. The only reason Silvery Barbs is getting all this negative feedback right now is that it's new. New things get more scrutiny than things in the PHB.

Now for those comparing silvery barbs to shield.... clearly shield is the better damage mitigation effect. That is very easy to show in math, the second you put in 2+ attacks in a round, shield tends to reduce more damage. That's really not debatable.

Yep! Now tell that to the people who think this spell is going to replace Shield.

What is debatable however, is the assumption on getting attacked. Shield proponents are assuming the wizard will get attacked, and then shows shield's superiority in soaking those attacks. What is missing from that analysis is increased % of the time that the monster will NOT ATTACK AT ALL due to Silvery Barbs.

Here we run into a problem. If we say the bad guy isn't gonna attack at all due to Silvery Barbs, I think what you really mean is they are going to be encouraged to fail a saving throw with Silvery Barbs. In that case, it's the other spell doing the heavy lift, and that are other ways to lower their odds of success on a safe. Heightened metamagic does it for about the same price, without costing a reaction (and I keep repeating myself, but reactions for casters get more and more valuable as you level up). Eloquence bards can do it with a bonus action and a bardic inspiration, which is cheaper. Divination and Chronurgy wizards both get ways to force things to fail rather than just use a reaction to increase chances of failure.
I understand it's different, and more versatile because it can also impact ability checks (something I haven't seen mentioned much, but using it immediately to roll higher initiative and then getting the reaction back because you go sooner strikes me as a very solid use of this ability), but each individual use isn't actually that strong unless you use it at a key moment, need is (sometimes they'll fail on their own), and then it actually works (sometimes they'll make it the second time).

If I cast banishment and it fails, then my wizard takes a full attack, and it sucks. But if my silvery barbs succeeds and activates the banishment, now my wizard takes no attacks. And no defense bonus is equivalent to never getting attacked in the first place.

Quick note, you should only really be using Banishment if the creature you're fighting is extraplanar. Otherwise it's a pretty bad choice of spell I keep seeing get floated here, for some reason. There are lower level spells to disable a single target.

Also, one of the benefits of Banishment is that it's a charisma save. It's already going to likely target a weak save. The heavy lifting being done here is being done by Banishment, not Silvery Barbs.

vs shield compensating for a wizard being a bad tank. Dnd generally rewards specialization, and a wizard that specializes in control through silvery barbs is going to perform better overall than a wizard that focused on shield to be some "ok" tank.

Not really the debate this thread is meant to be focused on, but I don't agree with the notion that is commonly spread that casters are inherently fragile. I also don't agree with the base assumption that wizards being targeted by attacks means they did something wrong. I kind of assume everyone is a target.

 

[jgsugden]

....Now, I have found LR to be so punative that when faced with it, most casters switch to damage mode; so maybe this isn't a bad thing.

This is highly different from table to table. For example, a common tactic for one of my parties is to start a big combat with my monk hasted and blessed - which means 5 attacks being made on the big bad, each of which (if they hit) can be a stunning strike. When we have the time to set that up, it has burned a lot of legendary resistance before the big bad even goes once.

Also, I see legendary resistance burns be a lot more common when PCs are attentive to the types of saves the monster is likely to sturggle against. Some parties all go after the same saving throw on round one of combat, forcing 5 saves against what is presumed to be the worst save for the monster. That can burn all the legendaries in round one, easily.

Other groups jut piled on the damage - but it is very different in different groups.

 

[abirdcall]

First off a 7th level character can cast Banishment once per adventuring day and I think Confusion or Greater Invisibility might be a better pick.
Burning off 10 spell slots on Silvery Barbs is probably not the best use of resources. If playing a support caster then counterspell or Absorb Elements may be a better use of my reaction and if you bring up the new monster design that is not really a factor. Most tables will have the MM and not the new books. Even with the new monsters counterspell is still useful as they have spells to cast that are pretty potent.
If playing an EK or Bladesinger then shield is probably better.

It is a very good spell but not as good as to justify the fuss.

See for further arguments.
And I would still not ban it until seen in play.

You state that it isn't a good use of resources but don't say why.

You say that Banishment can't be cast very often which sounds like an argument for Silvery Barbs being good.

You say Greater Invisibility is better than Banishment. Is your argument here that Saving Throw abilities (and we're not just talking about spells, Barbs can be used to enhance the offensive power of any party member not just the caster) are bad? Because that is the argument you need to make if you're going to say that Silvery Barbs isn't broken.

You then say that Counterspell is a better option while having just said that spell slots are limited. In the few combats where Counterspell is useful there is nothing stopping the caster from using it instead. The idea that sometimes another spell is useful makes Barbs worse is weird reasoning. You've also already argued that higher level spell slots are at a premium and Counterspell is level 3+.

How is saving your reaction for Absorb Elements which might be a complete waste be better than getting up to an extra action AND also getting advantage on a saving throw which is more likely to be a stronger defense than Absorb Elements? I'd rather greatly enhance my attack and also my defense then maybe increase my defense. If I had enough spells known I'd probably pick up Absorb Elements too. I'd likely be using 80-90% of my low level slots (or Sorcery points or whatever) for Barbs but that 5% where it's good to cast Absorb is worth having it around. Barbs is still broken even though there are cases where there is a better thing to do.

 

[abirdcall]

Yep! Now tell that to the people who think this spell is going to replace Shield.

The issue is that this is what you're focusing on.

I don't think there is anyone in this thread who have said that Silvery Barbs is brokenly overpowered because of its ability to force an enemy to reroll their attacks.

Continuing to argue against that is in bad faith.

Shield will be the better defensive spell against attack rolls more often though Barbs has its place against crits. The added advantage to an ally is also a strength here. But if that is all Barbs did? Reroll attacks? I'd probably prefer Shield on the whole but see it as a bit of a toss up.

That's not the part that is broken.

 

[abirdcall]

You are treating this like a weakness of the spell, when its one of its greatest strengths.

The fact that I don't need to spend resources with SB until I actually need to is a major strength of the spell. If the monsters are failing my saves left and right, wonderful... I have a whole bunch of spell slots for other purposes. But if they don't, then having the spell gives me a solid increase in my chance to push that a key high level control spell through.

further, nothing forces me to use SB. If I think the monster's save is just too good....I can always choose not to use the spell on that monster, and save it for the next one. Just like having a monster with fire immunity doesn't suddenly invalidate fireball for the entire day....neither does having a monster with really good saves invalidate SB.

Yeah, if the opponent rolls high and makes their hard save then your spell and action is gone - But wait, Silvery Barbs comes in and gives a redo and also gives an ally advantage to a saving throw all for a 1st level slot.

It also can be used on any passed Saving Throw. It's a reaction. It doesn't just have to be for the caster's own spells. Optimizers tend to ignore what the rest of the party is doing. Silvery Barbs is a very good spell for assisting the party. Even if your own spell went through you can still cast it later that round of an ally.

It is actually very helpful in burning through Legendary Resistance because it creates more failed saves without the cost of an action. If only 2 party members have Barbs in a 4 person party it would be reasonable to force through a failed save in the 2nd round assuming they have enough relevant abilities. If all of them had saving throw abilities that is 6 saving throws per round. Goodbye Legendary Resistance.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I’d rather find a way to fix it.

But how?

Remove the rider of granting advantage to another creature would be one suggestion. IMO the spell is powerful enough to force a reroll on a roll which has already succeeded.

Another suggestion if you want to keep the rider might be changing the casting time, so instead of triggering the reaction on a successful roll, you are triggered when the action occurs, before the roll is made or the outcome is known.

 

[ECMO3]

So 3 reactions and 3 first level slots was half as good as 6 actions and 3 4th and 3 5th level slots in effect.

To start with I did not consider magic resistance, which makes it a lot worse. But even going with a subpar DM that does not realize this )me) - It is still not as good as 3 uses of Absorb elements against fireball which would have saved on average 42hps damage (or 84 with failed saves) .... enough of a difference to kill a 13th level wizard outright.

The entire strategy is a bad one and preparing those spells in place of things like absorb elements and false life is not nearly as effective against this enemy or for that matter most legendary enemies.

As for Bel, say we use Psychic Lance (int save). 21 DC (+2 DC item!), needs a 14+ (+7 int save). Advantage makes it 60% save chance, but reroll from barbs isn't a save.

So you need a +3 to get a 21 DC at 13th level. You are also adding a magic item that is not present in the very campaign where Bel's stats are published and more powerful than any item in that adventure save one. For reference, I finished that campaign with boots of elven kind, an immovable Rod an no other magic items..

Let's go with this example though. Using a +3 item (21 DC, +13 Spell attack)) - He needs a 14, his chance of saving with magic resistance is ~58%.

We will assume Bel is going to fireball you every turn and you have a +4 dex save for an average of 22dpr if he can target you.

Psychic Lance With Barbs: If you used all three of your 4th-level slots at the end of three turns you would have used on average 3 first level slots, 1 silvery Barbs (1.2 mean) and stripped 2 Legendary Resistances (mean 1.2 remaining), one of them with silvery barbs (0.8). On average Bell would have taken 37 damage total over those 3 turns. This would have cost you 3-4th level slots, 1-1st level slot, 3 actions and a reaction. You would have caught the full brunt of 3 fireballs.

Let's compare this to other first level spells you could have prepared instead of barbs:

Psychic Lance with Expeditious Retreat
You prepared Psychic Lance but expeditious retreat instead of Barbs. You use a Chill Touch cantrip the first turn when you cast ER: Bel would lose 1 legendary (mean 2.1 remaining) and on average would have taken 25 Psychic Damage plus 13 Necrotic Damage. You can exploit the full range of Psychic Lance and move out of range every turn after casting expeditious retreat and chill touch on the first turn. He can't fireball you at all.

Magic Missile with Absorb Elements: You prepare Magic Missile and Absorb Elements instead of PL and Barbs. Magic Missile is a GOOD spell, not OP but good. If you had used Magic missile cast at 4th level every turn Bel would have taken 63 Damage on average. You can use your reaction to reduce fireball damage. Note if you have a move higher than 30, you can actually move out of range one of these three turns.

Expeditious Retreat and Cantrips:. Going only with cantrips casting expeditious retreat and using absorb elements. Casting expeditious retreat on the first turn and stayong out of range. You deal on average 41 damage with just cantrips. He can't fireball you at all.'

Absorb Elements and Blink: You prepare Blink and Absorb Elements instead of Psychic Lance and Barbs. You use Chill Touch to attack. On average you do 27 damage and avoid 1.5 fireballs completely, while halving the other 1.5.

Absorb Elements and Summon Fey: You prepare Summon Fey (upcast 4-th level) and Absorb Elements instead of Psychic Lance and barbs. You use Chill Touch to attack after the first turn. The Mirthful Fey causes a charm save and attacks every turn. For this we will assume Bel attacks you with fireball. If he attacks the Fey it is even better. The Fey does 21 DPR, Chill touch does 13.5.

Haste and upcast Magic Missile: You prepare Haste and Magic Missile instead of Psychic Lance and barbs. You cast Haste the first turn and use the haste action to dash out of range every turn while unleashing a 4th-level magic missile with your action.

Results:
Psychich Lance with Barbs:
You take 66hp damage. With a 10 constitution you are down. With a 12 constitution you have 1 hp left.
Bel takes 37 hps, loses 2 LRs
Cost 3-4th, 1-1st, 3 actions, 1 reaction

Psychic Lance with expeditios retreat and chill touch:
You take 0 damage.
Bel takes 38 damage, loses a LR
Cost: 2-4th, 1 1st, 3 actions, 2 bonus actions

Upcast Magic Missile with Absorb Elements:
You take 33 damage
Bel takes 63 damage
Cost: 3-4th, 3-1st, 3 actions, 3 reactions

Expeditious Retreat and Chill Touch
You take 0 damage
Bell takes 41 damage
Cost: 1-1st, 3 actions, 2 bonus actions

Absorb Elements and Blink
You take 17 damage
Bell takes 27 damage
Cost: 1-3rd, 1.5-1st, 3 actions, 1.5 reactions

Absorb Elements and upcast Summon Fey:
You take 33 damage
Bell takes 90 damage and loses 1 LR
Cost: 1-4th, 3-1st, 3 actions, 3 reactions

Haste and Magic Missile:
You take 0 damage
Bell takes 42 damage
Cost: 2-4th, 1-3rd, 3 actions

So yeah, I don't see this awesome advantage you are supposedly getting by casting Barbs. I just gave you 7 examples, one using Cantrips only to attack, all of them are an objectively better outcome at the end of 3 rounds.

Even if you assume the area is confined, such that you can't get out of range, almost any non-fire and non-poison combat spell you take with absorb elements is going to work better than the same spell paired with SB.

 

[Captain Panda]

The issue is that this is what you're focusing on.

The issue is that you said Silvery Barbs is on par with 4th level spells. Really hard to take that level of hyperbole seriously.