D&D 5E Silvery Barbs, how would you fix it? Does it need fixing?

[iserith]

I watched TreatMonk's video on this spell and I agree with the analysis. It's a good spell, but it is not overpowered in my view.

That said, if you're not playing a Strixhaven campaign or it doesn't for some reason fit the theme or setting, it need never make it into your game in the first place. I'm not running Strixhaven, nor do I plan to, so it won't be making its way into my current campaign or even my next campaign. I don't think there should be any expectation that every race, class, spell, feature, etc. must be included in a given campaign.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

You state that it isn't a good use of resources but don't say why.

You say that Banishment can't be cast very often which sounds like an argument for Silvery Barbs being good.

You say Greater Invisibility is better than Banishment. Is your argument here that Saving Throw abilities (and we're not just talking about spells, Barbs can be used to enhance the offensive power of any party member not just the caster) are bad? Because that is the argument you need to make if you're going to say that Silvery Barbs isn't broken.

You then say that Counterspell is a better option while having just said that spell slots are limited. In the few combats where Counterspell is useful there is nothing stopping the caster from using it instead. The idea that sometimes another spell is useful makes Barbs worse is weird reasoning. You've also already argued that higher level spell slots are at a premium and Counterspell is level 3+.

How is saving your reaction for Absorb Elements which might be a complete waste be better than getting up to an extra action AND also getting advantage on a saving throw which is more likely to be a stronger defense than Absorb Elements? I'd rather greatly enhance my attack and also my defense then maybe increase my defense. If I had enough spells known I'd probably pick up Absorb Elements too. I'd likely be using 80-90% of my low level slots (or Sorcery points or whatever) for Barbs but that 5% where it's good to cast Absorb is worth having it around. Barbs is still broken even though there are cases where there is a better thing to do.

I brought up Banishment because you and others are using it as the go to combo with Silvery Barbs in this and other threads on the topic. In your case in the context of a 7th level caster. I do not think I would even prep it as a 7th level wizard. I have at most 12 slots to prep and there are better concentration spells out there competing for attention.

I do think that Silvery Barbs is a very useful spell and may often be more useful as a reaction use then other options but not ban worthy. However, on average the other option are I think more profitable use of the one reaction per round than Silvery Barbs.
The biggest weakness of Silvery Barbs is that initial reroll. All other things being equal, a reroll of a save is not as valuable as people here are making out.
In the absence of other information, the chances are that if a creature made their save then they will make the reroll. It is most useful when you know you are targeting a poor save. It is most useful when forcing a reroll on a crit, because there you know that, that is a super special roll that is unlikely to be repeated on a reroll. It is also very useful on forcing rerolls on an ability check because there the creature is not benefiting from their proficiency bonus.
I would also use it to counter a Counterspell that forces an ability check to stop a spell.
I really do not see how you can generally rate it better than shield or Absorb Elements for damage mitigation

 

[UngeheuerLich]

As the shield spell came up,
probably using the barkskin mechanic would be a good idea:
Shield sets your AC to 18 + 1 per 2 levels upcast. Or maybe a more generous 16 + proficiency bonus.
So it is still as good for the wizard as it should be, but nor overpowered on naturally high AC casters.

 

[billd91]

For an even less favorable comparison, compare Silvery Barbs to Hound of Ill Omen. Hound of Ill Omen can make not one saving throw be at disadvantage, but can make fifty of them at disadvantage! Let me hasten to point out, because I suspect you'll miss the point, obviously no one is ever getting full use out of Hound of Ill Omen like that. It can be knocked down. It has to be next to a target. There are disadvantages and it isn't going to be useful in every fight. In that same way not every fight, or every session, is going to have one key roll you'll even WANT to spend a reaction and spell slot on rerolling. And when you do have a key roll line up and use Silvery Barbs? It's just another roll, it isn't always going to go your way. And then you've used your reaction. No more Shield (which I maintain is a dramatically better use of a reaction), no Counterspell (higher level slot, same reaction cost, also a way better use when it comes up), no Absorb Elements (another fantastic reaction that, when relevant, blows Silvery Barbs away in usefulness), and you might not even get the result you want!

One might hope that silvery barbs compares unfavorably to the shadow sorcerer's hound of ill omen, the caster gets it 5 levels earlier. But it's another example of people comparing a 1st level spell to a significantly higher level ability - which, honestly, is a cautionary flag.
Nobody's knocking the idea that absorb elements and shield are pretty useful - as 1st level defensive reaction spells, they're great for the spellcaster. But they have significantly more limited scope in utility while silvery barbs, as people have pointed out, has a broad applicability that apparently invites comparison to higher level powers. So, yeah, I'm pretty wary of the spell.

 

[Professor Murder]

My concern is parties that have multiple spellcasters and the ability to nerf saves, hell, just a monk with stunning fist to stunlock a boss more effectively.

 

[Mort]

My concern is parties that have multiple spellcasters and the ability to nerf saves, hell, just a monk with stunning fist to stunlock a boss more effectively.

For me, anything that promotes coordination/cooperation and better teamwork between players is almost always a big positive.

There are always more/more powerful opponents.

 

[Professor Murder]

For me, anything that promotes coordination/cooperation and better teamwork between players is almost always a big positive.

There are always more/more powerful opponents.

I appreciate the sentiment, but in my experience, I don't enjoy the results.

 

[ECMO3]

In the absence of other information, the chances are that if a creature made their save then they will make the reroll. It is most useful when you know you are targeting a poor save.

This is what people really seem to not understand. In terms of the save reroll the most powerful use is when the enemy has a poor save and made a great roll (needed an 18 and got it). In these cases it can be HUGE. But this does not happen often, certainly not often enough to warrant an entire spell prepared at high level.

Most of the opportunity to use it will be against easy saves where the reroll will likely succeed. The most common effective use of it will likely be rerolling a crit.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

The thing is, that if Shield is useful you know it will work and spending the reaction and the slot will pay off. Same for Absorb Elements, Feather Fall. Counterspell is a bit of a gamble but if the opponent is using a higher than 3rd slot there is a better than even chance of costing them a high slot for a third level one.
With Silvery Barbs you are at about 50/50 (in the absence of other information) to get something useful on the reroll, worth it if you really need to make the bad guy fail that roll but the pay off will always be uncertain and the advantage is useful but there are much better ways to provide advantage.

 

[Stalker0]

There are always more/more powerful opponents.

We have to remember though that using powerful opponents is not "free", they have a narrative cost.

An extreme example: If a party of 5 1st level characters can take out an Adult Dragon. Now could I use more dragons or even higher ones....of course.... but suddenly the narrative of my world requires a shift. If dragons are so "easy" to take out, then they really shouldn't be credible threats to citys.

Now of course this is an extreme example to highlight the point, the point being that if abilities allow a party to fight a good deal above their weight class, that does have a narrative impact....one that some DMS may not be comfortable with. Its not just about having to redesign encounters, in campaigns where world building and narratives are important....it may also require you to rebuild your world.