D&D 5E Silvery Barbs, how would you fix it? Does it need fixing?

[Captain Panda]

It should also be noted that Treantmonk has released a list of his "big 3 house rules". In it....he bans shield outright.

Yeah, he does. Not that I think the opinion of a youtuber is worth any more than anyone else, but Treantmonk at least seems to understand that Shield is a spell that can dominate combat and can feel mandatory for players who are optimizing. It's a spell I go way out of my way to take, personally, so I definitely understand his reasoning. It makes well-constructed casters into better tanks than martials, unless martials multiclass to get Shield.

So if you consider Silvery Barbs in the ballgame of shield (or maybe even better), than even Treantmonk is suggesting a ban is not out of the question.

Treantmonk had a video discussing Silvery Barbs directly, no need to speculate.

 

[ECMO3]

The suggestion here is that the spell is ONLY useful in these very niche cases....which I will disagree with.

The fact that silvery barbs is most useful if the monster will have a very hard time passing a reroll is obvious.... but that doesn't mean its worthless if the save is a bit harder. The real question is: when is silvery barbs "not worth the slot", aka how high a save bonus should the monster have before its not worth the use of the slot.

True, but it is not likely to be a game changer when used with easy saves.

For example, recently I had a 13th level Ranger fighting from a flying castle against 3 flying Dragons. He fired a bunch of ensnaring strikes at them. They needed I think around a 7 to save and they had advantage because they were Huge. If I had landed one of those they would have plummeted to their death, meaning an instakill. They made every single save and I wasted I think 4 1st and 2 2nd level shots trying to stick that spell over the course of the battle. We won the fight, but those spell slots were irrelevant to it. If I had Barbs through a feat or something, I would have had a bunch of opportunities to use Barbs in that battle. Honestly more opportunities than I had additional slots I think. But more than likely if I had done that I would have completely ran out of spell slots and probably taken a breath weapon to the face at full damage as well.

As it was, I entered the final fight of the day, against Tiamat's Avatar, with few spell slots (albeit 3rd and 4th level mostly). If I had silvery barbs and if I had used silvery barbs, the most likely outcome would have been entering that final fight with no spell slots at all.

Now certainly I could have done a better job conserving slots, but if you are talking about saves, this is the kind of save that is going to come up most often - when the DC is very easy. You are going to generally wait around a long time for an enemy to make a save against a very hard DC, meaning if that is how you plan to use it - turn a save into a fail - you are going to have it prepared and rarely have a chance to use it.

Let's say you are 10th level caster and using disintegrate. You can throw that spell twice a day. Meaning maximum you will have 2 opportunities to use SB with that spell. If you go up against an enemy that needs a 16 to save, chances are you won't even have the opportunity to use SB with that spell at all. Change that to a 5 to save and you will probably be able to use it twice, but it is not likely it will change the result. There is a cost with preparing this spell and if this is the only way you plan to use it, that cost is very high.

Certainly there are other uses of the spell and stopping a crit in particular is awesome and something not easily done by any other spell and by few abilities. But this is where the true power and true utility of the spell is IMO, not on adversary saves. I am not saying it is useless on the later, just that it is not very powerful for this purpose due to the interdependency between the opportunity to use it and the chance to save.

 

[ECMO3]

So if you consider Silvery Barbs in the ballgame of shield (or maybe even better), than even Treantmonk is suggesting a ban is not out of the question.

Treantmonk reviewed SB and he said it was not the best spell in Strixhaven. In his opinion Vortex Wrap is the best spell in Strixhaven.

He certainly does not think it is the equvialent of shield since he did not say he would ban it.

 

[Stalker0]

Let's say you are 10th level caster and using disintegrate. You can throw that spell twice a day. Meaning maximum you will have 2 opportunities to use SB with that spell. If you go up against an enemy that needs a 16 to save, chances are you won't even have the opportunity to use SB with that spell at all. Change that to a 5 to save and you will probably be able to use it twice, but it is not likely it will change the result. There is a cost with preparing this spell and if this is the only way you plan to use it, that cost is very high.

Am I a 10th level caster with literally two slots dedicated to saves every day? If so, then sure I agree...your not playing a save focused wizard and SB isn't the right spell for you.

But if you are, what about those 5th level slots, and those 4th level slots, and those 3rd level slots. Any one of them could have a devastating control effect, and any one of them would be augmented by SB.

 

[Stalker0]

Treantmonk reviewed SB and he said it was not the best spell in Strixhaven.

My point was not that Treantmonk says ban SB (he is currently not recommending that). My point is that Treatmonk agrees there is a time when banning spells of Shield level power is good for the game. It sets a precedent that a "Shield level" amount of spell power is ban worthy.

The million dollar question of course, is whether SB is at that level of power.

 

[Captain Panda]

The million dollar question of course, is whether SB is at that level of power.

It's not.

Let's say you are 10th level caster and using disintegrate. You can throw that spell twice a day.

Strictly speaking you can cast it 0 times a day. Disintegrate is a 6th level spell, which you get at 11. Overall point still stands, specific spell aside.

 

[ECMO3]

Am I a 10th level caster with literally two slots dedicated to saves every day? If so, then sure I agree...your not playing a save focused wizard and SB isn't the right spell for you.

But if you are, what about those 5th level slots, and those 4th level slots, and those 3rd level slots. Any one of them could have a devastating control effect, and any one of them would be augmented by SB.

No but if you are a 11th level caster, 6th-level slots are your "game changers" and that is what this is being presented as, something to land a game changer. Using it on a lower level spell is not using it for this.

Sure, so you couldn't use it on your disintegrate, because that spell landed, but actually you get a chance to use when you fireball an Aboleth later that day (he needs an 18 to save). Now you use your SB to pair with your lower level fireball. This is statistically an ideal case. He got lucky, it is a hard save he just made! So you make him reroll and he fails. Now instead of having 121 hp after a made save, instead he has 107hps left.

That is hardly a game changing difference! Yeah, you waited to use it until the DC lined up with the spell and you had opportunity. Frankly I am not sure that chance at 14 more damage is even worth a 1st level slot as a cantrip can outdo that 11th level. If that is the only save they make in the fight, it is the only opportunity you will have to use SB to force a save reroll. This might be the only opportunity to use it this way all day. Or maybe the only save that is made all day is against mind sliver. But you have it sucking up a prepared/known slot all day long and if you are waiting to use it for this alone, you are likely going to be disappointed.

This is the fundamental problem with this line of thinking. You can not use this spell at will. It is not up to you when you can use it to make someone reroll a save. The opportunities to do that are going to occur randomly and will be biased towards saves that are easy to make.

 

[ECMO3]

Strictly speaking you can cast it 0 times a day. Disintegrate is a 6th level spell, which you get at 11. Overall point still stands, specific spell aside.

My bad. Brain fart.

 

[Stalker0]

No but if you are a 11th level caster, 6th-level slots are your "game changers" and that is what this is being presented as, something to land a game changer. Using it on a lower level spell is not using it for this.

A wizard has many many more game changers than 6th level spells. Polymorph, banishment, hypnotic pattern, dominate person, hold monster, hold person, hypnotic pattern, heck even a slow spell can cripple a monster reliant on both actions and bonus actions. All of these spells and more can fundamentally change a combat with a single saving throw.

Wizards don't change combats starting at 11th level, they change combats at much much lower a level, and SB just makes that power even stronger.

 

[abirdcall]

The problem is, you're analogy is being presented in a vacuum - and is seemingly without cost other than the spell itself.

In actuality, the caster is going to contend with the fact that silvery barbs loses his reaction. Which means no shield, no absorb elements, no counterspell, for some builds to possibility of a spell as an AoO etc. It's a good effect, but it has enough of a cost to likely balance it.

Still curious to see how it goes in actual play.

The analogy is to demonstrate the math.

It's not about whether the subsequent saving throw succeeded or failed, it's about the EV of the decision.