D&D 4E Simple 5e Healing that reconciles pre-4e and post-4e HP styles

[Boarstorm]

To me, the alternate should happen.

The guy in heavy armor gets hit a lot of times and eventually gets wounded.

The guy in no armor getting hit once gets wounded right away because he has no armor.

Don't forget to take the size of health pools (Vitality and Wounds) into account when thinking about this. Due to the higher Vitality of the guy in heavy armor, it will take far more hits to truly wound him. Likewise, the lower Vitality of the squishy in back will mean that fewer hits are required to knock him into Wound territory.

Is it enough to offset the scenario you describe? Well, it could be -- all that's left is figuring out the math (VP/WP per class) to make it happen.

As an aside, I've always been a fan of the VP/WP model introduced (to the best of my knowledge) in the original d20 Star Wars, but I've noticed a lot of players who have a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept.

"I hit him, but I didn't hit him?" or, alternately, "I got hit, but I didn't get hit?"

 

[Lordhawkins9]

This system just lacks excitment.

You can lose up to HALF your hit points every encounter and not even have to spend any resources what-so-ever to keep on going?

Either you're killing healing classes by making them moot or playing in a system that the PC's are getting hit so often that you're killing the point of wearing armor or having any type of defeses.

 

[Naszir]

Huh?

Melee PCs have historically lost half or more of their hit points in encounters a lot in every edition of the game system, hence the concept of golf bags full of Cure Wounds Wands and the concept of the 15 minute work day. The 15 minute work day was just as much or more of the Cleric running out of healing as it was the Wizard running out of offensive spells.

Historically for you?

Does a 1st level group have golf bags full of Cure Wounds Wands? Or does the 1st level group have one encounter, loses half their hps and then calls it a day?

Clearly we play the game differently.

 

[Boarstorm]

This system just lacks excitment.

d20 Star Wars added excitement by having the Wounds value equal to your Con score and not increase in level.

... and then ramped it up by having critical hits go directly to wounds.

 

[Naszir]

This system just lacks excitment.

You can lose up to HALF your hit points every encounter and not even have to spend any resources what-so-ever to keep on going?

Either you're killing healing classes by making them moot or playing in a system that the PC's are getting hit so often that you're killing the point of wearing armor or having any type of defeses.

According to KD it is historically typical that characters lose half their hit points every encounter.

I think you are not looking closely at this enough. This is an attempt to keep adventurers going without having to rely so much on clerical healing. Though it still can be important to have and viable to have healers because wounds can only be healed by clerical magic or an extended rest.

It is also a way of saying that some hit points lost are the result of fatigue and not just purely physical damage (this doesn't jive for some and that's ok). So there must be a way of getting those hit points back quickly by taking a short rest.

To me it makes sense to have a classes that can heal not so much healing classes. Clerics should not be pigeon-holed into being just healers.

 

[Blue]

At 0 Wounds, a PC is unconscious and dying. While dying you cease taking damage, but instead start making death saves. 3 failed saves and you're dead, 4e style. If you are hit or damaged again while dying, you automatically fail you're next death save. No negative HP in this system.

Not sure I like this part. I've got two issues, or maybe they are opposite sides of the same issue.

It always takes at least three rounds (for three death saves) to die. You can't die quicker. Covered in lava, you've still got three rounds. If a healer has a healing at-will feat and can once every three rounds cure you, you won't ever die.

And it doesn't matter the amount of damage. Three rounds of ongoing 2 poison will kill you exactly as quickly as a solo dragon spending all of her attacks on you and critting on each.

When you can die from damage as well, it leads to heroics as your allies rush to protect your body, lead off the foes with area of effect attacks, etc. With this there's no rush until you've failed two death saves.

 

[Dragonblade]

You can lose up to HALF your hit points every encounter and not even have to spend any resources what-so-ever to keep on going?

Actually I think it would add excitement. As long as you have 1 Wound, you'll have full Vitality and can always risk pressing on and checking out that next room. It makes the choice of going forward or camping a meaningful one instead of a no-brainer. It makes it easier for DMs to add time pressure in an adventure. It allows a DM to get away from the players hoarding wands and potions and being full strength for every fight which ironically is what I saw in 3e where you didn't have this model but you had easy magical healing.

Where is the excitement of a game where you might lose half your HPs, but you just chug a couple of potions or poke yourself with a sack full of CLW wands and you're instantly good to go anyway?

The goal is to allow players to play and explore without forcing them to frequently camp, nor forcing them to rely on magical healing. I despise the whole idea of explore three or four rooms and camp, rinse and repeat. And I'd like to get away from players having Cure wands and a sack of potions or a healbot cleric.

Either you're killing healing classes by making them moot or playing in a system that the PC's are getting hit so often that you're killing the point of wearing armor or having any type of defeses.

You still need armor and you still need healing classes. Not healing in battle because you have the expectation of recovering afterwards is a risky one. But thats what I like about it. Do you expend resources to recover now in the heat of battle? Or do you tough it out knowing that Wounds are harder to recover from? It makes those choices meaningful, IMO.

 

[Dragonblade]

Not sure I like this part. I've got two issues, or maybe they are opposite sides of the same issue.

It always takes at least three rounds (for three death saves) to die. You can't die quicker. Covered in lava, you've still got three rounds. If a healer has a healing at-will feat and can once every three rounds cure you, you won't ever die.

And it doesn't matter the amount of damage. Three rounds of ongoing 2 poison will kill you exactly as quickly as a solo dragon spending all of her attacks on you and critting on each.

When you can die from damage as well, it leads to heroics as your allies rush to protect your body, lead off the foes with area of effect attacks, etc. With this there's no rush until you've failed two death saves.

Good points. I think things like lava should just be instant death and not even deal damage.

You could have a lethality dial where you reduce this to one death save instead of three, or any additional damage is death instead of being an auto-fail. I found the 4e model worked for me, but I wanted to get away from negative HPs because then the question becomes how negative can you get?

What kind of system would you like when you are dying? I think having negative HPs is no different than having a death save system. Its a buffer that keeps a PC alive until his allies can get to him and heal. Would you like more lethality? Or less?

I'm more of a make death rare, but make death final, kind of guy. I don't like Raise Dead or Resurrection magic at all.

 

[airwalkrr]

Vitality/Wound points is a further and unnecessary complication of the game that should remain in the Optional or Variant rules in the DMG, not part of the core game. For those that like a little extra realism, it is there. But for most of us, I believe it is unnecessary. Remember, everyone, we want the core game to play fast and simple.

 

[Dragonblade]

Vitality/Wound points is a further and unnecessary complication of the game that should remain in the Optional or Variant rules in the DMG, not part of the core game. For those that like a little extra realism, it is there. But for most of us, I believe it is unnecessary. Remember, everyone, we want the core game to play fast and simple.

I agree, but the problem with a simple HP system is some people will be upset at mixing warlord healing with clerical healing and having them both heal the same thing.

I'm cool with that, but I know some aren't, thus this system. But yeah, it should probably be optional to keep the base game simple.

One of the advantages of this system is it can be dropped right on top of a straight up simple HP system with virtually no conversion or change in spell descriptions. Instead of tracking all HP in one pool, you just track it in two. Thats pretty much all there is to it.