Simple question about Refl saves

[Hypersmurf]

If four attackers surround a spellcaster and not one of them has enough wit to grapple him, they deserve to suffer through whatever spell he decides to cast (defensively).

Now, the DC for casting defensively is 15 + spell level.

The DC for casting while grappled is 20 + spell level.

If you want to cast defensively while grappled... is that a/ impossible? b/ two checks one after the other? c/ one check, DC 35 + spell level? d/ something else?

-Hyp.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

When grappled you can only cast spell without S components which eliminates a lot of spell and makes the Power Word lineup of spells more attractive than ever! And you must have M components in hand which you can't do if pinned. But I'd assume you can do it if just grappled.

A- I don't think you can cast defensively if you are grappled because the description states that you need to dodge and weave.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A- I don't think you can cast defensively if you are grappled because the description states that you need to dodge and weave.

The description says "paying attention to threats and avoiding blows".

Does "denied Dex bonus" mean you can't avoid blows? Or is that only if you're helpless?

I'm not sure.

-Hyp.

 

[RogueJK]

Fango -

I might have been inclined to take your post as your actual opinion rather than an attempt to be a jerk if you had backed up your statement with something more informative than "I hate it" repeated 35 times.

As it is, I jumped to the conclusion that you were simply trolling. And for that, I apologize. I appreciate that you explained yourself more fully in a later post.

--------------------------

I agree that 15+spell level isn't really a challenge at higher levels, but you have to make it fair for low-level characters too. If it was higher, your 1st-level cleric would probably not be able to get that "Cure Light Wounds" that you need to keep from dropping to -10 cast. The mortality rate of 1st-level characters would be even higher.

Assume a 1st level Fighter is fighting an Orc. He gets hit one too many times, and drops to -8 HPs. The cleric rushes in, and attempts to cast Cure Light Wounds on him. Now, he has two choices: He can cast defensively for a DC of 16, or he can just cast it normaly, provoking an attack of opportunity, and (more than likely) have to make a Concentration check of between 15 (minimum) and 56 (max). With a max of 4 ranks in Concentration, and assuming an 14 in Concentration, that's a 50% chance to make the Defensive concentration roll, and between a 55% to 0% chance to make the normal concentration roll, if the orc hits.

Also, higher level characters should have a low chance of being disrupted. Remember, they've been doing this for their entire lives, so they're probably good at it.

That said, I could probably live with a new system which also takes into account caster level or the duration of the spell.

 

[FANGO]

Well...you do actually get your dex bonus when in a grapple, you just only get it against people you are grappling with (who are probably the people you need to worry about when it comes to attacks of opportunity while grappling). Personally, I wouldn't let someone cast defensively in a grapple, but then again, as I've said before, I think it's a stupid rule...so do with that as you will ;-)

However, it seems to me that if you're a mage and you're being grappled with, the last thing you need to worry about is spellcasting (when my half-ogre gets an enemy spellcaster into a grapple, there is only one possible outcome: lots of little pieces of splattered mage goo all over the place)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well...you do actually get your dex bonus when in a grapple, you just only get it against people you are grappling with (who are probably the people you need to worry about when it comes to attacks of opportunity while grappling).

If there are four people surrounding you, and one of them grapples you, I'd be worried about the AoOs from the other three as well.

Since that's the situation we're analysing, it's important.

However, it seems to me that if you're a mage and you're being grappled with, the last thing you need to worry about is spellcasting (when my half-ogre gets an enemy spellcaster into a grapple, there is only one possible outcome: lots of little pieces of splattered mage goo all over the place)

When your half-ogre gets an enemy spellcaster in a grapple, do you think that spellcaster has a better chance of survival attacking you with his dagger, or trying his stilled, eschewed Hold Monster?

If you're a mage and you're being grappled, spellcasting might be the only thing to keep you alive...

-Hyp.

 

[FANGO]

While it may be true that higher level casters should have an easier time doing what they do, higher level fighters (or the half-ogre that I was talking about in the previous example, who hates mages and rushes straight through everyone (including blade barriers...which has become the enemy's favorite tactic in this campaign...those things sure do hurt sometimes, and I sure am damn glad to have those 250hp to help soak up that damage) to get to them and smash them as soon as he can) have also been doing what they do for a long time, so they should know how to disrupt spells. It has always been my view that spellcasting shouldn't be done in combat, though I would make exceptions for certain spells, but only very rarely (maybe burning hands, or teleport without error or something like that). It's not hard at all to keep your mage out of combat...in 12 levels, I can't remember my sorceress ever having to cast defensively (or even make a concentration check, for that matter), because I would stay out of combat, where the mages should be in the first place. The liability of being a mage and having tons of magical power is that you are in big trouble as soon as someone gets near you...as long as you paly it smart, though (and have teammates who will help you keep the bad guys away from you), you shouldn't have to worry about that.

I have little sympathy for the cleric in your example, though, because he could just as easily cast the spell when far away from melee and walk in, holding the charge, and touch his friend (which wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity or anything), or he could also stand 5 feet back (out of the bad guy's reach as long as he's medium size, or at least having his friend between the bad guy and himself) and cast the spell, touching his friend and then getting out of there. Of course, clerics also have heavy armor proficiency, d8 hd and medium bab progression for a reason: they're supposed to be taking a lot of hits and such from healing on the front lines, whereas the mages, with their lower hd/lower bab/arcane spell failure should be sticking back and not getting into combat, so there should be no need for them to cast defensively or anything.

Er, I'm sure that rambled. But hopefully you get the drift. I hate concentration ;-)

 

[FANGO]

Oh, very true about the attacks from the other 3 people...forgot the situation we were talking about for a moment ;-)

Even if the mage did happen to prepare a stilled/eschewed/whatevered hold monster spell, I still don't think he would have much of a chance to use it...pin is very fun, and unless the mage is hasted, I don't think he could escape a pin and cast a spell in the same round, unless that spell also happens to be quickened, but that would bring the aforementioned hold monster up to 9th level (without the still), and it seems to me that unless you have a lot of spell slots to waste then you'd probably really rather fill that slot with a gate or meteor swarm or something, not to mention that there is still the problem of actually escaping the pin in the first place which is nearly impossible, and the fact that I would still get a will save versus the hold spell (and my will happens to be relatively good, due to some multiclassing and a pretty good wisdom score). I still don't think that casting defensively would work well in a grapple (if at all...), but if your enemy knows anything about what they're doing you won't have the option anyway.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Even if the mage did happen to prepare a stilled/eschewed/whatevered hold monster spell, I still don't think he would have much of a chance to use it...pin is very fun, and unless the mage is hasted, I don't think he could escape a pin and cast a spell in the same round

But unless your half-ogre is hasted, you won't be able to close, grapple, and pin in the same round.

-Hyp.

 

[FANGO]

No, but I can close and ready an action to smack him when he tries to cast a spell (so it doesn't matter if he's casting defensively) or run away or something, or also I can trip him or just smack him and use knockdown to send him to the ground, making sure that he stays right there in front of me until I'm good and ready to give him a big sweaty bearhug and smush his head like a rotten tomato.