Simpler AoOs

[Jefe Bergenstein]

A simple solution to this is to allow one AoO per round against anyone who lowers his guard, including the paralyzed creature, the unconscious creature, etc.

This also adds a very evil tactical element. I know my nastiest NPCs would just love to take a free swing at the downed Fighter while fighting the Ranger. Just to be mean.

Yeah, I'm just poiting out the kind of goofy implementation. Same with invisible characters someone isnt aware of... I'd imagine their guard is down as well.

As much as I like tactical combat, I dont think I'd miss them too much if AoO's went away. I think they kind of discourage active battles, through limiting movement, and discouraging options (disarm, sunder, etc) without proper feats. When our last game started, it was put to a vote, and the decision to remove the AoO from combat maneuvers was unanimous. The feats still give good benefits (+4 to most rolls), and it works for the monsters as well as the PC's, btu the game has taken on a more action movie feel (which was what we were aiming for).

 

[jasin]

It's just really cumbersome and silly.

It's cumbersome, but I don't think it's silly, and it can be pretty cool when you imagine it.

A berserker is facing and heavily armoured knight, and extremely hard target. So the barbarian figures he'll smash the knight's shield with his glaive! But this isn't something he's had much practice with. As the glaive comes down just a bit slower, the knight spots the opportunity and hacks as the shaft with his sword. But he's not well versed in this either, so his sword gets stuck in the shaft, and the barbarian slams it into the ground, before bringing the glaive back up to smash the shield into splinters!

This actually happend recently.

Barbarian: sunders shield (no Improved Sunder)
- Crusader: gets AoO: sunders glaive
- - Barbarian: gets AoO (Combat Reflexes): sunders sword
- - - Crusader doesn't get AoO (no Combat Reflexes): sucks to be him

It does bring the game to a halt while everyone wraps their heads around the nesting, though.

I'd love to see a system that worked more smoothly but kept the action-reaction aspect rather than having combatants just do their own thing regardless of what the opponent's doing.

 

[Arashi Ravenblade]

Id like to see them get rid of limits to how many times you can get AoO. I never found the list too long, though I found it to be rather rediculous that moving through threatened squares and making unarmed attacks counted as AoO.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yeah, I'm just poiting out the kind of goofy implementation. Same with invisible characters someone isnt aware of... I'd imagine their guard is down as well.

As much as I like tactical combat, I dont think I'd miss them too much if AoO's went away. I think they kind of discourage active battles, through limiting movement, and discouraging options (disarm, sunder, etc) without proper feats.

The problem with not having AoOs is the circular initiative system. The King's Guards cannot stop (shy of Readied Actions) the Assassins from getting to the King without AoOs.

There are also related problems like:

Does an Invisible Creature Flank?
Does an Illusion of a Creature Flank?
Does an Invisible Creature provoke an AoO due to movement?
Does an Illusion of a Creature provoke an AoO due to movement?

It would be nice if whatever system of combat penalty conditions (such as being Flanked or provoking an AoO) not only were consistent, but were also intuitive in 4E.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

The problem with not having AoOs is the circular initiative system. The King's Guards cannot stop (shy of Readied Actions) the Assassins from getting to the King without AoOs.

There are also related problems like:

Does an Invisible Creature Flank?
Does an Illusion of a Creature Flank?
Does an Invisible Creature provoke an AoO due to movement?
Does an Illusion of a Creature provoke an AoO due to movement?

It would be nice if whatever system of combat penalty conditions (such as being Flanked or provoking an AoO) not only were consistent, but were also intuitive in 4E.

Oh yeah, Invisible flanking... easily yoinks d6 sanity.

Something along the lines of counters ala Book of 9 Swords would work well enough for stopping someone from getting to the king. I enjoy stuff that lets people act outside their initiative from time to time... keeps everyone on their toes rather than just on "their turn". Besides, we all know the assassin would just make his tumble check!

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Id like to see them get rid of limits to how many times you can get AoO. I never found the list too long, though I found it to be rather rediculous that moving through threatened squares and making unarmed attacks counted as AoO.

Moving through threatened squares is the only one that ever made sense to me. It was a way to prevent someone from just "I run between the eight guards. I go before them, so they can't touch me," routine.

I never understood why ranged attacks provoked, but standing there holding a bow didn't. I could see a penalty to hit if you are being attacked in melee and try to use a bow, because it isn't easy to line up your shot while dodging a sword, but why should your opponent get a free attack for it?

 

[Branduil]

Based on the playtest reports, I would guess that AoOs are being replaced with some kind of much more flexible "immediate attack" option.

 

[Philip]

There's nothing iffy about that. If you don't threaten an area, you don't get to use AoOs. The punching example doesn't work.

It does, but you just have to hold a dagger in your other hand to generate the AoO.

 

[Philip]

I hope that with 4e's focus on "Streamlining" combat and making it faster, they will shorten the list of "What causes an AoO" and other AoO related things.

It's just really cumbersome and silly.

I usually just houserule: no special attacks or moves when gaining an AoO. Certainly no attacks that cause an AoO in itself. That will simplify it a lot already.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Another houserule is that, if you are doing an action that provokes an AoO, you are too distracted to respond with an AoO of your own (I'm drinking a potion...I cannot defend myself properly...but wait, you are trying to trip me, so I will take a moment from drinking my potion to hit you).

It doesn't stop the chain if there are others PCs who could respond, but at least it keeps the action limited to one per person.