Simplifying and rebalancing the attributes system

[Gort]

The change:

Remove intelligence and wisdom attributes - replace with one attribute called "wits". Any skills or class features that used either intelligence or wisdom now use wits.
Tie will saves to charisma.

Here's my reasoning for the change. Is there really any need for more than one stat for how smart someone is? The examples of people with huge intelligence and no wisdom and vice versa all just seem contrived. And why does common sense denote your will save, rather than your force of personality?

Also, on the subject of balancing the attributes - in almost every game charisma is used as a dump stat, unless there's some power tied to it. (cleric, bard, paladin, sorceror) All the other classes will pick wisdom and intelligence over it in most cases, since it really isn't terribly useful. If it denotes your will save, there's actually a reason to take it again.

 

[Stormborn]

The change:

Remove intelligence and wisdom attributes - replace with one attribute called "wits". Any skills or class features that used either intelligence or wisdom now use wits.
Tie will saves to charisma.

Here's my reasoning for the change. Is there really any need for more than one stat for how smart someone is? The examples of people with huge intelligence and no wisdom and vice versa all just seem contrived. And why does common sense denote your will save, rather than your force of personality?

Also, on the subject of balancing the attributes - in almost every game charisma is used as a dump stat, unless there's some power tied to it. (cleric, bard, paladin, sorceror) All the other classes will pick wisdom and intelligence over it in most cases, since it really isn't terribly useful. If it denotes your will save, there's actually a reason to take it again.

I think there are two different issues here:
1) The Combining of INT and WIS
2) The use of CHA for Will saves

As far as 1) goes, I disagree. Wisdom is not another measure of "how smart" someone is, its a measure of perceptivness. And it does seem to make sense to me that they be seperated. The examples are not at all contrived, I have known pleanty of people who were totally aware of their enviroment but couldn't really process what it all meant, and the opposite as well. THe classic examples might be the good ol' boy hunter who can find and kill anything in the woods due to his Wisdom but can't pass 8th grade, and the the absent minded proffesor, genius at work but can't be bothered to realize what day of the week it is.

Regarding 2): I think you are right. CHA seems far more appropriate for Will than WIS. However, the two issues do not really have to be linked.

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't think either is an extremely good idea. Mechanically it would work, but I think that the base rule is more beautiful.

Keeping Intelligence and Wisdom separate is a very good idea to represent very different ways of having "wits". Stormborn examples said it all, and for instance, I am myself an "absent minded professor", you wouldn't believe how much the current rules for Int and Wis model my RL behaviour...

Will saves are a hard simplification of willpower. You may not like it to be tied to "perception" but it makes no less sense than being tied to "force of personality". Being strong in influencing other people and being strong in bolstering yourself is a different thing, and in fact depression and similar problems are very common among artists and performers for example. At best Will saves should probably be separate from Int/Wis/Cha but the core rule is the best IMHO.

Then of course, from a simple balance-wise point of view, using Charisma instead of Wisdom for Will saves will probably work just as well. Merging Int & Wis won't disrupt the game either.

 

[Tessarael]

Remove intelligence and wisdom attributes - replace with one attribute called "wits". Any skills or class features that used either intelligence or wisdom now use wits.
Tie will saves to charisma.

Firstly: Arcane/Divine spellcasting
One problem with this is that it makes Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge a very good build, if Wits is used for both Wizard and Cleric spellcasting. Needing only one primary ability is very good for a multi-classer.

In general though, I tend to agree that you can get rid of one of the mental abilities.

Let's look at what else it affects. Secondly, skills:

STR - 3 skills with this as key ability
CON - only 1 skill based on this (Concentration)
DEX - 9 skills based on this
INT - 17 skills based on this (10 of these are Knowledges)
WIS - 6 skills with WIS as key ability
CHA - 8 skills based on this

If you combine INT and WIS, you end up with 23 skills based on Wits. That's more than for all the other abilities combined! Way too good, especially if Wits continues to give more skill points.

I'd be more inclined to combine WIS and CHA. Then make Arcane spellcasting always use INT, and Divine spellcasting always use WIS/CHA.

Another option is moving towards a more unified spellcasting system, where Divine and Arcane spellcasting is not distinct (e.g. Arcana Unearthed). In that case, having the same primary attribute for spellcasting classes is not such an issue. (Basically it comes back to how much synergy you want between different spellcasting classes.)

Just my thoughts ...

 

[Gort]

Are mystic theurges really good enough to warrant considering? I was under the impression that they're not very good at all. Oh, and including knowledge skills in the numbers there does skew things a bit. There's a lot of knowledge skills, but most times they're not going to save your life, unlike say, concentration.

But good point on merging charisma and wisdom. That may be the way I take this in the end.

 

[Gort]

Or as a possible alternative - a feat that allows you to use your charisma mod for your will saves?

 

[Stormborn]

Or as a possible alternative - a feat that allows you to use your charisma mod for your will saves?

That would certainly be the easiest fix, and I see no reason to think it would be unbalancing. Unlike with an across the board change, you don't have to recalculate a lot of NPC Will saves, nor make adjustements to existing PCs. Players who don't like the idea don't have to take it, while the Sorcerers probablly will.