Simulationist Question on PoL
- Thread starter Jack of Tales
- Start date
Ydars
Explorer
The PoL setting might make some sense, if the monsters don't organise themselves into huge groups; just bands of around 10 individuals. Then they could challenge a party, but not a PoL or a heavily armoured caravan.
Big monsters are another problem, but they are rarer and could be placed in the wastes between Kingdoms, a long way away. You would have to meta-story why they stay away e.g. ritual replusion as suggested earlier but I don't think it is serious.
I think we have to acknowledge the fact that magic would change SO many of the rules that many things would be possible. Since we don't know about rituals and whether NPCs can have them or how they might be used in non-combat situations, we will have to reserve judgement until we see the complete rules set.
Actually the default 3e setting is even more ridiculous because monsters are common and yet powerful humans are everywhere. In the real world humans hunt and destroy any creature that is a danger to livestock, let alone to man himself. And some of the monsters are numerous enough to have annihilated humans long since.
Big monsters are another problem, but they are rarer and could be placed in the wastes between Kingdoms, a long way away. You would have to meta-story why they stay away e.g. ritual replusion as suggested earlier but I don't think it is serious.
I think we have to acknowledge the fact that magic would change SO many of the rules that many things would be possible. Since we don't know about rituals and whether NPCs can have them or how they might be used in non-combat situations, we will have to reserve judgement until we see the complete rules set.
Actually the default 3e setting is even more ridiculous because monsters are common and yet powerful humans are everywhere. In the real world humans hunt and destroy any creature that is a danger to livestock, let alone to man himself. And some of the monsters are numerous enough to have annihilated humans long since.
DandD
First Post
It's D&D. Don't apply logic to any of its settings. Monsters like the Undead Shadows would have exterminated all life on a world long ago, what with their ability to sap strenght and create new shadows from those who died to their strenght-draining touch, and there wouldn't be enough clerics to stop an undead invasion anyway, so these things just get hand-waved. Don't think too hard about this at all. 
Jack of Tales
First Post
there's a distinct note on the first post to all mentions of those who tell us to leave well enough be to not bother entering. Please take your opinion elsewhere.
As a side note, I got bored and did some research into food/subsistence farming.
It seems that 100 good farmers with a mere 27 acres each (2,700 acres is about 11 km squared) could easily provide for a town of 1,000 even taking into account what the farmers and their families (assuming an average of 4 people per household) would eat. That's without trade, hunting or other food sources. With some basic improvements from magic (say the town has two low level NPC-class casters with the ability to increase food sources) the town could probably survive with only 1,600 or so acres. That's a wide area but not too wide for a garrison of say 20-30 to protect. They would also have plenty of it to trade in addition to whatever the people in the actual town are doing. So they may be lumber exporters or iron exporters. After looking at this I think it's very possible for a small town to be able to survive in a very dangerous area excluding bandits (really, if the town offers to pay you off with food why bother banditting?). With some earthworks/palisades these places would be pretty secure! especially since the farmers would likely have spears/bows to defend the crops themselves.
As a side note, I got bored and did some research into food/subsistence farming.
It seems that 100 good farmers with a mere 27 acres each (2,700 acres is about 11 km squared) could easily provide for a town of 1,000 even taking into account what the farmers and their families (assuming an average of 4 people per household) would eat. That's without trade, hunting or other food sources. With some basic improvements from magic (say the town has two low level NPC-class casters with the ability to increase food sources) the town could probably survive with only 1,600 or so acres. That's a wide area but not too wide for a garrison of say 20-30 to protect. They would also have plenty of it to trade in addition to whatever the people in the actual town are doing. So they may be lumber exporters or iron exporters. After looking at this I think it's very possible for a small town to be able to survive in a very dangerous area excluding bandits (really, if the town offers to pay you off with food why bother banditting?). With some earthworks/palisades these places would be pretty secure! especially since the farmers would likely have spears/bows to defend the crops themselves.
Pbartender
First Post
Ydars said:
I'm not sure where he got his information, but read this...
Medieval Demographics Made Easy
Medieval Demographics Made Easy said:
hamishspence
Hero
Kitchen sink setting
A lot of fiction mixes ideas, Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar series has the very PoL-like Pelagiris Forest, full of scary monsters, with little settlements of Tayledras who, bit by bit, fix the damage, destroy the monsters, etc. It takes a very long time though.
You can have mixed world, with PoL type areas and more successful ones, thats what Heroes are for, to turn PoL areas into more settled ones, which eventually become complacent and fall again. Constant flux.
it does say the last big empire fell a mere 100 years before. the setting is a "Dark age" Just cos it's PoL now doesn't mean it was always like that, or, that it will stay like that, or, that every part of the world is like that.
For 3rd ed era Faerun, you could say the Dales and the Sword coast, and the Savage Frontier, etc, are classic PoL areas, but Mulhorand is more settled with lower proport ions of monsters.
It all depends how dark you want the dark areas. Baldur's Gate Game, for example, was full of monsters, and only in towns did they become very rare, and even then, there were infiltrators, and hazardous sewers, and whatnot.
When reading World and Monsters, I thought, isn't D&D already somewhat PoL-ish? Most of the novels seem to have that flavour.
A lot of fiction mixes ideas, Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar series has the very PoL-like Pelagiris Forest, full of scary monsters, with little settlements of Tayledras who, bit by bit, fix the damage, destroy the monsters, etc. It takes a very long time though.
You can have mixed world, with PoL type areas and more successful ones, thats what Heroes are for, to turn PoL areas into more settled ones, which eventually become complacent and fall again. Constant flux.
it does say the last big empire fell a mere 100 years before. the setting is a "Dark age" Just cos it's PoL now doesn't mean it was always like that, or, that it will stay like that, or, that every part of the world is like that.
For 3rd ed era Faerun, you could say the Dales and the Sword coast, and the Savage Frontier, etc, are classic PoL areas, but Mulhorand is more settled with lower proport ions of monsters.
It all depends how dark you want the dark areas. Baldur's Gate Game, for example, was full of monsters, and only in towns did they become very rare, and even then, there were infiltrators, and hazardous sewers, and whatnot.
When reading World and Monsters, I thought, isn't D&D already somewhat PoL-ish? Most of the novels seem to have that flavour.
Fallen Seraph
First Post
Also just want to put out there, even if in PoL there are TONS of intelligent, powerful monsters near the points of light. As Derren suggests the PoL for 4e would be like.
I think the these monsters given their intelligence, instinct, cunning, etc. Know it isn't in their best interest to simply start swallowing up towns left, right and centre. Sure the small village that is only visited by a single person once every couple months may get swallowed up.
But towns often frequented, or trade-routes often used, will be less likely to be harassed given that they know if they push hard enough the Points of Light will push back.
It is like how in modern-horror, there are very cunning and intelligent monsters that exist in fairly high numbers amongst us. However they know if they try to become to powerful and to assertive they will just be more likely to be killed by police, hunters, the general populace once they find out, etc.
I think the these monsters given their intelligence, instinct, cunning, etc. Know it isn't in their best interest to simply start swallowing up towns left, right and centre. Sure the small village that is only visited by a single person once every couple months may get swallowed up.
But towns often frequented, or trade-routes often used, will be less likely to be harassed given that they know if they push hard enough the Points of Light will push back.
It is like how in modern-horror, there are very cunning and intelligent monsters that exist in fairly high numbers amongst us. However they know if they try to become to powerful and to assertive they will just be more likely to be killed by police, hunters, the general populace once they find out, etc.
Jack of Tales
First Post
Ydars said:
You know not only did I start the thread but tried to be kind about telling that person to go away. I dislike having to say it which is why I include it at the beginning of many of my threads. And as for where I got the data Agriculture
and as a note, Medieval demographics made easy is such a great source for making game settings. <3
Using monsters as a primary point of protection for civilizes races (human or otherwise) is a great way to explain aspects in addition to supplying an amazing wealth of ideas and plot hooks. I love it!
Absolutely. My longtime homebrew setting has several PoL areas. One is a region of bickering, undisciplined freeholds that is in rough enough, low-production terrain that it's not feasible for them to extend their power very far, but each freehold is very very defensible; another, more hardcore PoL area is a lost continent in the first stages of colonisation by the major Renaissance-level civilizations.hamishspence said:
I would add re agriculture that it's likely for organized monstrous humanoids to have a parasitic relationship to human settlements, that is, they extract tribute, bandit-style. And the monsters between the points of light would do an awful lot of fighting amongst themselves.
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