Sing to me, O Muse, of BECMI!

[Snarf Zagyg]

BECMI is set up as a player's and a DM's book with a choose your own type adventure to get a player going.

Also? Don't believe BECMI.

BECMI lies.

#BarglewasFramed
#JusticeforBargle

 

[deganawida]

So, if I am understanding everyone's responses correctly, B/X is the best way to proceed, and the gameplay should be dungeons to wilderness to next dungeons in order to properly feed the gameplay loop? Is that a fair assessment? Note that I'm not judging it as bad, just trying to figure out what it does best.

Also, thank you all for the responses!

 

[Tonguez]

Also? Don't believe BECMI.

BECMI lies.

#BarglewasFramed
#JusticeforBargle

For Aleena - Bargle had to die!

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

For Aleena - Bargle had to die!

....or maybe, just maybe, Aleena was the sinister mastermind all along .... and maybe, just maybe, we've all been wrong all these years ...

 

[Voadam]

Also, what do y'all think of the Known World/Mystara as a setting?

I like a lot of it as a setting. Some of it I actively dislike.

It has a lot of fantasy analogue kingdoms, so there is a D&D fantasy Mongol area, a fantasy D&D viking area, a merchant prince area, a sea trading guild area, etc. Also there are specific non human areas, the dwarven kingdoms regional sourcebook, the elven one, the shadow elven one, the halfling one. Also things like a big Magocracy. Gazetteer 1 is a standard D&D type area for baseline stuff as well. Tons of neat stuff for distinct cool themes for D&D areas and lots of resources for using it as a setting or taking stuff to use in your own.

Then there are things like the Carribean theme park islands one or the Orcs of Thar regional gazetteer. Thar in particular had such promise but went in some hard core poor directions with humor characterizations and art directions when it could have gone with awesome Jim Holloway humanoid art themes and not gone the humor route it took.

A lot of fantastic stuff to use that can be great for D&D games. Some stuff that I would avoid.

 

[rogueattorney]

...or the Orcs of Thar regional gazetteer. Thar in particular had such promise but went in some hard core poor directions with humor characterizations and art directions when it could have gone with awesome Jim Holloway humanoid art themes and not gone the humor route it took.

I understand the humor in GAZ10 Orcs of Thar is not to everyone's taste. It's really juvenile. But the bones of GAZ10 are really solid - the various humanoid player classes, the humanoid cults and their shaman, and most particularly the city of Oenkmar. A lost orcish city floating in a lake of lava - a fantastic adventure setting.

 

[Voadam]

I understand the humor in GAZ10 Orcs of Thar is not to everyone's taste. It's really juvenile. But the bones of GAZ10 are really solid - the various humanoid player classes, the humanoid cults and their shaman, and most particularly the city of Oenkmar. A lost orcish city floating in a lake of lava - a fantastic adventure setting.

The humor of the orc queen being portrayed as a short black-skinned heavy set woman with exaggerated big lips who bonks the king on the head with a bone is certainly not for everyone.

The humanoid PC classes from what I remember are fairly subpar. The wicca and shaman are like normal PC magic-users and clerics, but lesser across the board in power and spells.

That is a big theme of the book, humanoid stuff is all derivative of others in the setting, but lesser, stupider, and often a joke. Classes, cultures, religion, history.

This was disappointing to me.

The back of the book says:

Orcs? A Gazetteer about Orcs?

Absolutely. And hobgoblins, kobolds, bugbears, gnolls, trolls, goblins, and more! If you think the only good orc is a dead orc, you're in for a surprise. Orcs (and the other humanoids) are more than just anonymous hordes to be slaughtered for easy experience points - they are creatures with personality, culture, likes and dislikes, and a point of view. Find out all about them in The Orcs of Thar.

The Orcs of Thar is the tenth in a series of Gazetteers for the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game system. It gives you a comprehensive, in-depth look at the orcs and their world, including:

• Orcs and other humanoids as player characters
• A large full-color map of Thar, home of the orcs
• Complete rules for humanoid spell-casters
• The King of the Orcs, and why you don't want to run into him
• Seperate DM and Player's Booklets
• ORCWARS! , a complete boardgame, also included!

and the cover is a cool King Conan as an orc scene.

They had been built up as a decently big threat in prior gazetteers. I was looking for pulp barbarians, not stupidity caricatures. I could have even really liked a Warhammer hooligan Orkz kind of humor, but the cross-eyed nose picking type was a big let down.

Oenkhmar has some cool stuff, but even there the background story is that the fantasy Aztec evil god tricks orcs into worshipping him and adopting derivative Aztec stuff using a +1 dagger to convince them their big central cultural myth of a quest for a blue dagger of destiny is accomplished.

I did like some of the Oenkhmar stuff like the mummies.

Bits and pieces of Thar have good parts, but a lot of it rubs me the wrong way.

 

[CleverNickName]

I understand the humor in GAZ10 Orcs of Thar is not to everyone's taste. It's really juvenile. But the bones of GAZ10 are really solid - the various humanoid player classes, the humanoid cults and their shaman, and most particularly the city of Oenkmar. A lost orcish city floating in a lake of lava - a fantastic adventure setting.

"Juvenile" is a lot more kind than I was, when I described it in another thread.

 

[Mannahnin]

Lots of good stuff written in here.

I concur that B/X is generally the better execution of the concepts. The one exception being that BECM lets M-Us and Elves start with Read Magic plus another spell, and allows them to learn more spells from scrolls or captured spellbooks, where B/X weirdly limits them to ONLY one spell in their book per character level, unless they do Magical Research. Which is definitely an option, but IMO generally misses out on one of the most fun parts of playing an M-U- looking for new spells to add to your book. I house rule that when I run B/X. Or just use the optional rule from Advanced OSE if we're using OSE.

 

[Willie the Duck]

So, if I am understanding everyone's responses correctly, B/X is the best way to proceed, and the gameplay should be dungeons to wilderness to next dungeons in order to properly feed the gameplay loop? Is that a fair assessment? Note that I'm not judging it as bad, just trying to figure out what it does best.

Here's my thoughts* -- If you are trying to introduce a group to a TSR-era D&D/AD&D-like gaming setup, I would get a couple POD copies of Moldvay-Cook B/X, tell the players that that is the game you are for the most part using, set up the expectation that levels cap at 14 (or 12,10,8 for demihumans) and spells cap at 6th (5th for elves/clerics), and that you want people to read the player sections of the books (not just the character creation section). Then get one copy of RC or BECM (I optional) and mine it for ideas. This will give the players the best presentation of the procedural systems of the game, and at the same time resetting expectations and scale such that a halfling capping out at level 8 isn't a grievous issue because 8 is still frickin' high level and that the magic user doesn't have to have wish or meteor swarm to be high level.
*for no particular reason except not throwing a bunch of parentheticals around, I'm assuming this is in-person gaming. Adjust as needed.

I'd also suggest that, after you've run a successful campaign or two with this, looking into some OSR games like Old School Essentials, Worlds Without Number, or Beyond the Wall. None of them have the same elegant simplicity and utility as B/X, but many are fountains of creativity and/or have simply-better mechanics for things like thief-like skills or making balanced demihumans or the like.

I like a lot of it as a setting. Some of it I actively dislike.

It has a lot of fantasy analogue kingdoms, so there is a D&D fantasy Mongol area, a fantasy D&D viking area, a merchant prince area, a sea trading guild area, etc. Also there are specific non human areas, the dwarven kingdoms regional sourcebook, the elven one, the shadow elven one, the halfling one. Also things like a big Magocracy. Gazetteer 1 is a standard D&D type area for baseline stuff as well. Tons of neat stuff for distinct cool themes for D&D areas and lots of resources for using it as a setting or taking stuff to use in your own.

I think that's a near universal. While it is set up as (in theory) a cohesive* setting, it really is a hodge-podge of disparate ideas and tones. It's obvious that it was built by a group of different voices without a centralized plan going forward (which can be part of the charm). There are physical inconsistencies like the Viking -analog culture and (IIRC) a jungle culture existing in close proximity at the same parallel. More often there are tonal variations, with one book being strongly serious and grounded, another silly, a third serious but ungrounded (airships or winged minotaurs or a city of 1000s of max-level wizards). It is definitely something to take what you want and omit what you don't.
*although not complete. Unlike the AD&D game worlds, this one left quite a bit of territory (somewhat close to the established starting areas) open for DM development. Something I appreciate.