D&D 5E (2014) Single class Hexblade - missing something?

[Ancalagon]

If you do want to muli-class, the key question is do you want Heavy Armor?
Certain Cleric domains are the only way for you to get the Heavy Armor proficiency from a multi-class dip....unless you do not start as a 'Lock.

Echo Knight (Fighter) + Hexblade, can be a good, at will controller. Echo Avatar is a better scout then a Familiar...who needs Pact of the Chain!

Paladin + Hexblade is a very good Combo. Arcane Smite and Divine Smite technically stack, so a single expenditure of a Warlock spell slot can get you the effects of both.
The Pally spell list is good, and having a Preparation spell list to access has many benefits.

I completely agree what multi-classing fixes the problem, and these are good combos. Other good combos are either battlemaster or rune knight (for damage resistance or parry so you can extend armor of agathy), eldritch knight (a hexblade/eldritch knight is very gish) or bard(college of sword) - that last one takes a bit of time to come online but is extremely versatile.

BUT that's the problem! To fix the deficiencies in hexblade, you have to multi-class!!!

 

[TwoSix]

I'm going to be pretty critical here, but I did want to thank you for the very detailed response It's particularly appreciated because of your experience

No worries. Any differences here come down to how we evaluate certain abilities. There's no right answer, of course.

If you are an elf/half elf, that's a two feat combo... so level 8 minimum (and no boosts to your charisma)... I don't know.

Elven Accuracy gives a +1 to Cha. I was fortunate enough to roll a 17 with my character, so I was able to hit 20 at level 4 with 17 + Half-Elf + Elven Accuracy. But even with point-buy/array, you can get an 18 at 4. I feel the accuracy gain combined with -5/+10 compensates for only havinga +4 stat at level 8, but that's really dependent on how often you feel you can gain advantage. I probably had advantage on 80-90% of my melee attacks, and when I couldn't get advantage, I'd back up and switch to EB.

I treat EB as a good cantrip to have to be able to attack at ranged when forced to (like the barbarian carrying a few javelins basically). It really annoys me that perhaps the best way to play hexblade is to not fight in melee and rely on EB+AB spam. That's cheesy and against the "spirit" of the class, but you need a dip in another class to be able to do fight in melee well (without using magic).

If it really annoys you, I can't argue with that. But my personal feeling is that having solid melee AND ranged options is a strength.

And I could run some numbers, but I don't think EB spam is better than melee with EA/GWM until tier 4. Lifedrinker is a big boost, and EA makes it so that crits (and the BA attack that crits trigger thanks to GWM) occur fairly often.

I would note that there is an opportunity cost - the invocation you use for AB could be used to boost your fighting or give yourself versatility.

True, I was speaking more to the opportunity cost in combat (no need to swap weapons, etc), but yes, it does cost an invocation. If you truly don't want to have the ranged option, you can swap it for something else. (Tomb of Levistus comes to mind as a great survival option.)

I will also note that at level 11 and above, having 3 slots instead of 2 reaaaaly helps.

Hitting level 11 on hexblade is like finding an oasis after weeks in the desert. That 3rd slot is HUGE.

A magic-less single class hexblade is pretty 2nd rate in combat. (multi-class reaaaly helps here).

Is it, though? This is probably where I disagree with you. At least in Tier 2, there aren't any huge differences in capacity between classes that get extra attack. Most of the difference comes from feats, not class features. Great Weapon Fighting is worth only 1.33 per attack. (Tier 3 distorts this because of fighter's 3rd attack, but Lifedrinker is comparable to paladin Improved Smite.)

Other than Archery, most fighting styles really aren't worth the dip. If I dipped Fighter for Hexblade, it would be for Con saves first, heavy armor second, and a fighting style third.

A single class hexblade at mid level has enough spell known to do all this... but they don't have the slots. You spend one slot on either armor of agathys or shadow of moil (having both is pretty bad-ass but then you have no more spells) and then you have one more slot. If you AoE or control, you can't counterspell or have mobility. If you use your mobility spell you can't counterspell etc etc.

Yep, absoutely. If you use your AoE and counterspell up early, you probably need to hang back. If you armor up with AoA and SoM, you don't have an escape plan. (Except for Tomb of Levistus.) To me, that's part of the fun; I probably agonized over my combat decisions with the hexblade more than I have with any other character. But I like that. (I'm also the guy who likes the limited spells known of sorcerer.)

It's a shame that you can't easily use your spells for versatility outside of combat - you certainly can know enough spells to have a few spares...

I absolutely ended up with way more spells known then I ended up using. Better to have it and not need it than the other way around, I guess.

 

[Ancalagon]

No worries. Any differences here come down to how we evaluate certain abilities. There's no right answer, of course.

Nod - for example your group allowing flanking really makes a big difference IMO.

Elven Accuracy gives a +1 to Cha. I was fortunate enough to roll a 17 with my character, so I was able to hit 20 at level 4 with 17 + Half-Elf + Elven Accuracy. But even with point-buy/array, you can get an 18 at 4. I feel the accuracy gain combined with -5/+10 compensates for only havinga +4 stat at level 8, but that's really dependent on how often you feel you can gain advantage. I probably had advantage on 80-90% of my melee attacks, and when I couldn't get advantage, I'd back up and switch to EB.

I had forgotten thet +1 to Cha, that changes things a bit - but again, depends on the table/party.

If it really annoys you, I can't argue with that. But my personal feeling is that having solid melee AND ranged options is a strength.

It's good to be versatile yes, but the tactical benefits of ranged combat are huge - if you are equally as good as both, ranged is better (unless you have to tank, and then you better have one great defensive spell up or...).

Hitting level 11 on hexblade is like finding an oasis after weeks in the desert. That 3rd slot is HUGE.

Indeed... but it feels like the hexblade would need it at tier 2. How did the level 6 spell play out?

Is it, though? This is probably where I disagree with you. At least in Tier 2, there aren't any huge differences in capacity between classes that get extra attack. Most of the difference comes from feats, not class features. Great Weapon Fighting is worth only 1.33 per attack. (Tier 3 distorts this because of fighter's 3rd attack, but Lifedrinker is comparable to paladin Improved Smite.)

At tier 2... ooof. Take a hexblade without spell slots, in a melee fight, and let's compare it with a few other combatants

Barbarian is better without raging (HP is much better) and much better when raging
Fighter: You have an extra feat, a fighting style, action surge, better armor, maybe battlemaster maneuvers
Paladin: You have better armor and a fighting style, and your defensive aura. You probably have a slot or two left for a spell or a smite
Ranger: Not so great, but again you might have a spell or two left
College of sword bard: you definitely have spells left and you are essentially a mini-battle master

The hexblade can "step up" to that level of fighting with the use of magic. Without... mediocre.


Lastly - how was the specter?

 

[Iry]

Those invocations that give you a spell, but it still costs a slot? They need to not cost a slot. For example:

Bewitching Whispers
Prerequisite: 7th level
You can cast Compulsion once using a warlock spell slot. You can't do so again until you finish a long rest.

 

[TwoSix]

Nod - for example your group allowing flanking really makes a big difference IMO.

Oh, it's huge. I don't allow flanking myself when I DM, but I'm thinking allowing it might help tilt combat back towards melee. As you said, ranged is generally better.

It's good to be versatile yes, but the tactical benefits of ranged combat are huge - if you are equally as good as both, ranged is better (unless you have to tank, and then you better have one great defensive spell up or...).

Oh, definitely. But I'd note that with GWM active, melee became a much better option whenever I did have advantage. Tier 2 EB was 2d10+10, Tier 2 melee was 4d6+32 with a modest accuracy debuff. (Assuming EA, advantage attacks are at 90+% hit rate, -5 penalty attacks are still at 80+% accuracy).

Now, this discrepancy is certainly because I built the character towards melee, it had GWM and also Improved Pact Weapon. (The campaign was magic item poor, I finished the game never getting a magic weapon.) But the options to improve EB spam damage don't really exist, outside of going Sorlock. A hexblade sorlock is fantastic at EB spam damage, but a single class hexblade I feel has better options for melee.

Indeed... but it feels like the hexblade would need it at tier 2. How did the level 6 spell play out?

I took true seeing, which helped in some of the last fights; the DM was using a fair amount of illusions. I'd certainly tailor the choice to the game.

At tier 2... ooof. Take a hexblade without spell slots, in a melee fight, and let's compare it with a few other combatants

I was just comparing resource-less attack pattern to resource-less attack pattern. Whether or not 2 spells a short rest is comparable to a fighter's bonuses is a difficult comparison at best. Plus, invocation choice matters a lot here.

Barbarian is definitely better, even without rage. HP difference is probably at least 3 per level, since they can afford a 16 Con. Armor is equivalent. Reckless Attack boosts offense, but then negates the HP difference due to extra damage taken. No question though, better melee attacker overall.

Fighter can hit 20 early with the extra ASI, so that's nice. IPW makes up that difference unless magic weapons are available. Action surge is certainly better than a mid level slot, but I don't know that it's better than 2. Fighting style is a minor offense or defense boost. HP difference is about 2 per level, since fighter can afford 16 Con. AC is 1 or 2 higher (depending on the relative availability of full plate and half plate).

Paladin is similar to fighter, except they can't afford a 16 Con. Offense is better thanks to smite. I don't think anyone is arguing that paladin is strong in general.

Ranger, who knows? Most people I know don't even use PHB ranger.

The hexblade can "step up" to that level of fighting with the use of magic. Without... mediocre.

A hexblade is doing comparable damage to a fighter or paladin (we're talking 2d6+10 versus 2d6+10 with rerolls here) , with competitive AC and a minor dip in HP. It's not as good, but 85% as good isn't mediocre in my mind. A tier 2 wizard firebolt is mediocre.

Lastly - how was the specter?

Pretty fun! Did some damage, and made a good flanking buddy. We also got some useful information out of it, as the DM ruled it was a fresh specter and still remembered what it knew in life. Someone in the party had telepathy so we communicated with it that way.

Also, don't sleep on Armor of Hexes if you get to level 10. It literally stopped Strahd from killing me.

I'll be honest, if the idea of using EB a lot bothers you, I really wouldn't go hexblade. To me, the hexblade is a solid B/B+ at everything. There's better melee damage dealers, better ranged attackers, tougher defenders, and better spellcasters. But the hexblade can do all of them, pretty well, just not the best.

 

[Todd Roybark]

So assuming a 20 Stat, 1 attack at +7 against AC 15 Target
Has a 65% to hit, jumps to 87% with Advantage. DPR 8

With GWM, without Advantage, you hit only 40% of the time. You hit 64% of the time with Advantage, and your DPR increases to 16.

Elven Accuracy increases your chance to hit to 95% against an an AC of 15.
Your chance to hit with GWM and Super Advantage, a respectable 78%, with a DPR of 20.

The thing is, even as impressive as that is, sometimes, sometimes it is still just better to hit a creature with Eldritch Blast and automatically move them 10'.

A Hexblade is Elric or Doc Holiday, sickly heroes who look like they should be dead, let alone being deadly combatants through sheer force of personality.

But yeah 2 levels in Barbarian is tempting with this.

 

[NotAYakk]

First, start killing turtles (or rabbits, or rats) 1 hour before dawn. Cast Hex, kill the critter, and then take a short rest.

That gives you a slot-free Hex that lasts 8 hours (at level 5). If your day goes long, repeat at noon, and at dusk. Treat it as a ritual sacrifice to your Patron.

Now using a greatsword, no spell slots on the fight, and thirsting blade you deal 6d6+cha*2 (21+cha*2).

The combos -- elven accuracy and gwm -- can boost that further.

A half-elven hexblade (starting cha 15+2=17) at level 8 is:
Elven Accuracy
Great Weapon Mastery
Invocations (2):
Improved Pact Weapon (+1)
Thirsting Blade (extra attack)

Using 0 per-rest resources (other than a Hex cast within last 8 hours), against a 18 AC target with advantage:
+4 to hit
3d6+15 damage
73% accuracy
14% crit rate

.73*2*15 + .87 * 2 * 10.5 = 40.2 damage per round

which is quite respectable. If Hex goes down it drops to "only" 34 DPR.

Without advantage it becomes 19.7 DPR.

With hexblade's curse and advantage your damage goes up to 48.7 DPR. Which is quite good for level 8, and better than EB spam (even with EA and advantage and hexblade curse).

A non-elf could do a lazy +10 to hit for 3d6+6 damage (16.5); 22.5 damage per round, which is still acceptable.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The classic 1e Elven Fighter 1/ Magic User 1 had only a single spell for the entire day as a baseline.

The Hexblade through Cantrips, is a magical warrior. Eldritch Blast and Booming Blade, specifically.
A Hexblade is Emrikol the Chaotic with armor and weapons...EB beams from afar, weapons up close.

At 2nd level you pick up a second spell slot per Short Rest, and two Invocations. Being able to cast False Life on yourself at will through an Invocation at 2nd level alleviates the HP gap between the Hexblade and d10 HP classes. At 5th level retrain the Invocation( you have enough HP).

A Hexblade is a natural battlefield controller. Repelling Blast on the EB, keeps the monster's patchouli stink away from you. The War Caster feat allows you to use Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade on OAs, which with the Pole Arm Master and/or Sentinel feats can add the feel of being a Battlefield controller to the character.

If you do want to muli-class, the key question is do you want Heavy Armor?
Certain Cleric domains are the only way for you to get the Heavy Armor proficiency from a multi-class dip....unless you do not start as a 'Lock.

Echo Knight (Fighter) + Hexblade, can be a good, at will controller. Echo Avatar is a better scout then a Familiar...who needs Pact of the Chain!

Paladin + Hexblade is a very good Combo. Arcane Smite and Divine Smite technically stack, so a single expenditure of a Warlock spell slot can get you the effects of both.
The Pally spell list is good, and having a Preparation spell list to access has many benefits.

A Hexblade can also Arcane Smite with a Bow with the Improved Pact Weapon Invocation.

Do you mean eldritch smite? And I don't see how you get both effects for 1 slot.
Other than that it is worth noticing, that technically using warlock spell slots in place of spell slots for divine smite is not allowed, since the multiclass blurb about magic and pact magic only speaks about using one in place of the other to cast spells (not special abilities).

 

[Ancalagon]

Using 0 per-rest resources (other than a Hex cast within last 8 hours), against a 18 AC target with advantage:

Ah, but that's not quite true -if you are using Hex, you are using your concentration. That's something else you can't do. Also, advantage is not free - it came from somewhere. Whatever that was, that's a resource, or at least a requirement, for the greater weapon to work. You also need a bonus action to apply it - a bonus action you could have used for something else (like say, applying your curse)

It is a good trick to start the day with, but I'm not that sure it's the best thing you can do, especially considering you could have Shadow of Moil up instead.

 

[NotAYakk]

Ah, but that's not quite true -if you are using Hex, you are using your concentration. That's something else you can't do. Also, advantage is not free - it came from somewhere. Whatever that was, that's a resource, or at least a requirement, for the greater weapon to work. You also need a bonus action to apply it - a bonus action you could have used for something else (like say, applying your curse)

It is a good trick to start the day with, but I'm not that sure it's the best thing you can do, especially considering you could have Shadow of Moil up instead.

Concentration isn't a per-rest resource. So I was using 0 per-rest resources.

It is a resources. So is your action, what you are holding in your hand, etc.

There may be more optimal ways to play. I was showing that there is a low-resource way to play that gives you damage similar to, or better than, a zero-rest resource using Fighter or other melee.