Skeleton Questions

[accipiter]

Okay, I'm running a game tomorrow featuring a lot of skeletons (any players in my Eberron game, stop reading now!).

I was going to use the skeletal hydra from Libris Mortis as the ultimate fight, but I'm confused on a few points.

1. The skeletal hydra loses the combat reflexes feat and gains the improved initiative feat. Does this mean it can no longer attack with all its heads in a round?

2. Does it still have any of the nifty "I'm a hydra" schticks like regrowing heads? I'm pretty sure it loses fast healing, but does the head regrowing thing fall under that?

Bonus question: when adding a template to an already templated creature -- for example, fiery skeleton (+1/2CR) to a human skeleton (CR 1/3), how do I figure out the CR?

Any help would be much appreciated! I'd like to know what you think is fair as well as what's in the rules -- I'm pretty inexperienced as a DM, but my players really like a challenge. And I think I have a suitable alternate baddie lined up -- I just would really like to see the looks on my players' faces when a hydra shows up.

 

[Solarious]

Okay, I'm running a game tomorrow featuring a lot of skeletons (any players in my Eberron game, stop reading now!).

I was going to use the skeletal hydra from Libris Mortis as the ultimate fight, but I'm confused on a few points.

Everyone loves the Emerald Claw. Let us know how badly your players get beat up.

1. The skeletal hydra loses the combat reflexes feat and gains the improved initiative feat. Does this mean it can no longer attack with all its heads in a round?

It still makes all of the scary bite attacks that's a Hydra's trademark, but without Combat Reflexes it can't make more than one AoO a turn, unfortunately.

2. Does it still have any of the nifty "I'm a hydra" schticks like regrowing heads? I'm pretty sure it loses fast healing, but does the head regrowing thing fall under that?

I'm pretty sure it looses the regrowing heads. However, you can always make a specialized hydra-zombie that retains it's fast healing traits as well as the regrowing heads. There is a template for that kind of zombie in the Libris Mortis, right? Just bump up it's CR because you're retaining it's head-sprouting shticks (not included in the indestructable zombie template).

Bonus question: when adding a template to an already templated creature -- for example, fiery skeleton (+1/2CR) to a human skeleton (CR 1/3), how do I figure out the CR?

Just stack up the numbers and write up the final result. It's tricky for fractions (and those particular cases don't really come up often anyways). For your flaming skeleton, the CR is 5/6.

For example, I took a Dire Bat, advanced it to 12HD, then slapped on the Horrid, then Elemental Fire, then Half-Fiend templates in that order to make the Hunting Bats of Ashtakala (stay tuned for more nasties comming to a bestiary to you soon). That's 4CR, +1CR, +2CR, and then +3CR, for a grand total of CR 10.

Any help would be much appreciated! I'd like to know what you think is fair as well as what's in the rules -- I'm pretty inexperienced as a DM, but my players really like a challenge. And I think I have a suitable alternate baddie lined up -- I just would really like to see the looks on my players' faces when a hydra shows up.

I'm told it comes with experience. Don't worry, ENWorld is usualy here to help you. Be careful though, CR is best done by eyeballing it's power and then evlauating it against your PCs... how well optimized they are, their tactics, and how well you'll play it against them. It also comes with experience, so hang in there!

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

A creature Must have a con score to have the regeneration ability.

Since skeleton template = No con score, no regen.

 

[glass]

A creature Must have a con score to have the regeneration ability.

Since skeleton template = No con score, no regen.

Absolutely true, but since hydras don't have regeneration, not terribly relevant.


glass.

 

[phindar]

Yeah, with the skeletal template the creature loses its Special Attacks, but not the Special Qualities that relate to attacks, though not that many creatures have SQ's that relate to attacks. Ettins and Cloud Giants are the only two I can think of. (Ettin skeletons retain Superior Two Weapon Fighting, and Cloud Giants retain something that lets them use big swords.) Not terribly relevant to hydras, but an important point to remember in general.

On the whole, Hydras make great undead minions for the sheer number of attacks they get to make. If I was a necromancer (or more correctly, playing one), I'd pick a hydra over just about any similar HD monster to make into a skeleton.

 

[accipiter]

Everyone loves the Emerald Claw. Let us know how badly your players get beat up.

Will do, and thank you for the info!

Just stack up the numbers and write up the final result. It's tricky for fractions (and those particular cases don't really come up often anyways). For your flaming skeleton, the CR is 5/6.

I'm embarrassed to admit I tried that, but I couldn't find '5/6' in the srd encounter generator. (And I got a really odd look when I 'figured out', heck, no sweat, I'll just use half the creatures at 1/3 and half at 1/2. Works out the same, right? It's no wonder one of the catchphrases around here is "Who taught you math?" Usually directed at me.)

I'm pretty sure it looses the regrowing heads. However, you can always make a specialized hydra-zombie that retains it's fast healing traits as well as the regrowing heads. There is a template for that kind of zombie in the Libris Mortis, right? Just bump up it's CR because you're retaining it's head-sprouting shticks (not included in the indestructable zombie template).

I'm grabbing that idea for a later game. Unfortunately, the skeletons tie in to the MacGuffin, so it has to be skeletons, but the necromancer who has sent the party into the dungeon won't have that restriction.

I'm told it comes with experience. Don't worry, ENWorld is usualy here to help you. Be careful though, CR is best done by eyeballing it's power and then evlauating it against your PCs... how well optimized they are, their tactics, and how well you'll play it against them. It also comes with experience, so hang in there!

My players are brutal! Every last one of them is experienced, has made awesome characters (and not just statwise -- they really catered to me this time and made characters with great personalities too), ask only that I put in a reasonable amount of treasure and gold, and... wait, what was I complaining about again? Hehehehe. All kidding aside, though, I'm *so* glad I joined up here at enworld -- I was a little intimidated at first, but everyone's been really great, even with my dumbest questions.

Absolutely true, but since hydras don't have regeneration, not terribly relevant.


glass.

That's exactly my dilemma! It's regeneration, but it's not Regeneration. I did a little research and it looks like hydras are just chock full of exception goodness -- which could be a good thing in the hands of an experienced DM, but just leaves me scratching my head.

On the whole, Hydras make great undead minions for the sheer number of attacks they get to make. If I was a necromancer (or more correctly, playing one), I'd pick a hydra over just about any similar HD monster to make into a skeleton.

I think I'm going back to the hydra, regrowing heads or not! The alternative was a skeletal ibrandlin (from Monsters of Faerun) but I think there might be a typo there. It's a 'Gargantuan' dragon-like creature with a CR5. Might be nice for the 'Oh, crap, is that a DRACOLICH?' player responses, but, meh, the hydra will be cooler.

 

[phindar]

The dumbest question is the one not asked. Or that one about AoO's on Cleave, its a bit of a toss up. (Kidding people! Remember, I'm on your side. Its us against the world my friends.)

 

[moritheil]

Be careful though, CR is best done by eyeballing it's power and then evlauating it against your PCs... how well optimized they are, their tactics, and how well you'll play it against them. It also comes with experience, so hang in there!

I'd like to voice a dissenting opinion regarding "eyeballing CR." Creatures come at different power levels for the same CR even using out-of-the book, unmodified monsters. Just calculate the CR, ensure that it's within fair values, and run the encounter. If your players really enjoy challenges, its actual power shouldn't be an issue.

 

[accipiter]

If your players really enjoy challenges, its actual power shouldn't be an issue.

My players definitely enjoy challenges!

In case anyone was wondering (no? I'll share anyway!), today's session consisted of one CR3, three CR4, and two CR5 encounters, including an aballin, a sword spider, a cave-in, a pair of leucrottas (one already wounded by the sword spider), and the big final battle with a pack of ten skeletons, followed by five skeletons and the hydra. I have four players, all with third level characters (mage, barbarian, druid, and cleric), and they had a couple of third level but not particularly committed to assisting them NPCs available for some of the fights, as well as a third level NPC cleric for the last battle.

They were considerably down on resources by the time they reached the sealed door to the lower levels and the three hundred skeletons attacked (I did one batch of ten to start, followed by a batch of five and the hydra -- with more skeletons planned when those five went down).

They were thrilled with the hydra, and totally 'oh, crap, can we beat that thing?', along with "cleric, get that damn door open NOW!". While the PC cleric desperately tried to open the Sealed door that had just moments before melted several evil baddies who'd tried to open it, they took out the first wave of skeletons and then went to town on the hydra.

I was having a really crappy rolling night (I'm not kidding -- not counting the first encounter, I rolled above a six exactly four times; I try not to fudge my rolls, since I'm a very bad liar and can never remember what number I made up when asked about it a few moments later. Heck, I can't always remember the number I *rolled* when asked about it a few moments later), so my poor critters were a little handicapped. (And Improved Trip SUCKS. Seriously. My leucrottas were both tripped and then AoP'd to death.)

I also didn't realize that the druid's summoned wolves' attacks were considered piercing, slashing, AND bludgeoning, so the skeletons' DR wasn't much use... the hydra did manage to kill one wolf and mangle another before dying, though, and everyone was really worried (wow, that sounds lame... but it really was fun).

At the end of the session, everyone was almost completely out of spells except the cleric, and the barbarian was down to half hit points.

They were all really enthused, though, and didn't seem to notice that nobody had gotten scratched (by the hydra, anyway)! And they seem really excited to find out what lies behind the door, as their characters limp into the darkness of a tomb that's been sealed for fifty years...

All, in all, a very successful game, I think. And it gives me more material for learning what challenges to throw at them.

I'm kind of worried about handing out XP, though. I downtweaked it by 20% after the second session, when I realized they were just going to blow through levels at the given XP rate... I don't want to punish anybody or anything (I'm leaving treasure as is), I just need some time to figure out what I'm doing at lower levels before I have to worry about fly, levitate, fireball, and so on. And I really need to be able to throw higher CRs against them so they're challenged without basically leveling them up every session and a half. Meh, I think I overthink things too much! (And apparently I've written a novel here. Sorry.)

Anyway, thanks for all the help and good advice!