Skill Challenge DCs

[Kestrel]

I ran some skill challenges for my group last night, using the errata'd skill challenge DCs, but it seemed to both the players and I that the DCs were much too low.

Ex: They were 3rd level, so according to errata, the DCs are Easy 5, Moderate 10, Hard 15. On a trained skill, assuming its a prime stat of 18, they are going to have a +9 to the skill. Even on a roll of 1, they can make a moderate DC, and a hard dc with a roll of a 6.

Now, I did do an escalating DC of +1 per repeated use of a skill, but it seemed that they were getting through the challenge with very little...challenge.

Am I doing something wrong or are the errata dcs a little too low?

 

[Obryn]

I'd suggest using the new DCs, but leaving in the footnote about adding 5 to Skill DCs. I agree, I think they overcorrected.

-O

 

[Anand]

Trained people with max out skill still have 25% chance of failure in a hard DC. I think that's prety fair. Three failures, and you're out.

The trick is what really matters for the outcome is the PC that doesn't have maxed-out the necessary skill. Easy DC are easy (only someone not trained and with penalties have a chance to fail), and moderate are... well... moderate!

 

[Kestrel]

Good suggestion Obryn. I've built all my skill challenges to be difficult to succeed and thats a good suggestion for raising the difficulty.

The reason they are hard to succeed is that I'm building the challenges to add interesting complications when they fail. To succeed without any complications is like having a really good day where everything goes your way. Its rare, and requires a good amount of luck for it to happen, so the DCs need to reflect that.

 

[LostSoul]

I used to use the DCs from the errata, but when I realized I was raising the level of the challenge to get the ones in the table (without the +5 modifier), I just used those.

Still, I can't recall the last time the PCs lost a skill challenge. Which is fine with me, they've all been at the PC's level recently and the players have been pretty smart about things.

 

[FireLance]

I think the low DCs are necessary given the standard skill challenge setup which is:

1. In order to succeed, you need to score a fairly large number of successes (4 for a Complexity 1, to 12 for a Complexity 5), but you are only allowed 2failures (since the third failure means that the skill challenge is failed).

2. Checks to earn successes are usually not separate from checks that result in failures, i.e. a skill check results in either a success or a failure. Since the number of failures allowed is low, anything a character tries must have a fairly high chance of success or he is better off not doing anything.

Some things you can do if you want to use higher DCs but keep the level of challenge approximately the same are:

1. Increase the number of allowable failures, e.g. reframe a single Complexity 2 skill challenge as two Complexity 1 skill challenges.

2. Have different consequences for failed skill checks (e.g. hit point loss - most traps take this approach).

3. Allow some skill checks that can earn successes but which do not accumulate failures if failed (limit the number of successes that the PCs can gain from this approach so success is not guaranteed), or allow ways for the PCs to earn automatic successes (this is a good way to allow player skill, and not just character statistics, to influence the outcome of the skill challenge).

 

[fba827]

I, too, find the DCs to be too low for the way we run them in my group.

Our players (myself included) usually tend to focus on a select group of skills each (i.e. each PC is specialized) rather than all of us being dabblers across the board.
Thus, when making skill checks, those who are trained in the given skill pretty much always pass. If someone is not trained in a given skill then it depends pretty much on the dice result.

Of course, when given a choice/freedom to use a skill of your choice as long as you can make the rational, then the players go for skills they are good at, which means they don't really fail either.

But when forced to use a skill that their PC isn't trained at, that is when they actually feel challeneged/nervous/etc

So we tend not to use the errataed DCs and instead opt for higher (the +5 to the errata chart seems to be about where we DM ballpark it).

Again, this is all just based on my experiences in the group I play with.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Don´t forget: a single complexity 1 skill challenge is like fighting a single goblin.

You can make things more difficult by either: throw a higher complexity skill challenge at them. (complexity 5 equals 5 monsters)

You could also increase the level of the skill challenge to make it a full encounter:

so for a party of 5, you need a skill challenge worth 500 xp. So a complexity 1 skill challenge of 10th level would be appropriate, which raises DC by 6 each.

You could also use a complexity 2 skill challenge of level 6, but this is not so good, because it just raises difficulty by 2... maybe just use a complexity 2 check of 7th level (600xp) which raises difficulty by 4

Maybe a skill challenge of complexity 3 of level 4 (525 xp) DC increased by 2 is closer to the desired challenge.

What buggers me more with those DCs is outside a skill challenge skill checks are usually too easy, because you can always take ten and never fail, even if you are untrained... especially for passive perception and insight it may pose a problem

Also DC´s for Endurance checks to improve sicknesses are ridiculously easy... (before they were too hard however)

 

[LostSoul]

I wish that complexity wasn't tied to difficulty.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I wish that complexity wasn't tied to difficulty.

My suggestion: Just raise the level of your challenge. XP wise, a complexity 1 challenge is worth the same as a single Goblin. Of course the players breeze through that. It will never be hard to them. Even if you do a complexity 5 challenge - it's still "only" 1st level encounter. Most experienced players should have no much trouble beating that.

If you want it harder, raise the level. Maybe it is not explicitely suggested in the rules, but why should monsters and combat encounters be the only thing you can vary in level?

Here is a recent article on the DCs:
The math of the DCs: D&D Ruling Skill Challenges
(DDI subscription required)
Excerpts:

All this math is to illustrate an important principle: The DCs are aimed at the character who might have training and a +2 stat bonus, and at PCs who made no effort to improve a skill. If a PC really wants to maximize a skill, the system lets him show off his mastery by blasting through the DCs with ease. By spending those feats, training in a skill, and picking a combination of race, background, class, and so forth to maximize a skill, the character is a master compared to other PCs.

Of course, that does lead to a problem in D&D. Mastery is kind of boring. That's why people climb Mount Everest. You could walk up and down that steep hill near your house, but if you're an expert mountain climber, you want to challenge yourself with more difficult goals.

Not every skill check in a challenge needs to be created equal. The DCs at a given level are a guideline for the entire party, but there's no need to use them across the board.

The easiest way to challenge a PC with a high skill check is to increase that skill's DC in a challenge. Make sure, however, that the elevated DC is not the only way to overcome the challenge. A good skill challenge involves the entire group. In this case, you're building a specific check for that one character because a skill challenge should have some option for everyone in the party. The guy who knows that he's going to succeed no matter what is as bored (and maybe even frustrated) as the PC who knows that he can't succeed.

With a higher DC should come a higher reward. A successful check might grant the rest of the party a bonus on some other check, a clue for figuring out another part of the adventure, or an advantage in another part of the session. For example, in the skill challenge to sneak into the sultan's palace, you decide to set an ultra-hard Bluff DC. To make the check, the PC must talk to the guards. Failure leads to his arrest -- but if he succeeds, the guards mistake him for a visiting dignitary. Later, when the sultan's secret police pursue the PCs through the palace, the guards leap to help protect "the ambassador."