Skill Challenge: Survive a night in the haunted dungeon

[LostSoul]

LOSTSOUL -- when you talk about having the PCs make rolls against the restless spirits and dreams and whatnot, how exactly do you go about it? Do you just describe the situation to your players and then wait for them to tell you what skill they want to use to combat it?

I tell them what the opposition is doing, and give them a pretty good idea of what's going to happen if they do nothing. I ask them what they are going to do, and cast that as some kind of check.

DM: You are woken by a strange howling - like a cruel winter wind full of malice and hate. In the darkness, you can make out shapes coming towards you. Ethereal soldiers are rushing at you, still bearing the wounds that killed them. They rush at you, screaming words of hate: "You will die just like we did."

What do you do?

PC1: If one gets close, I'll smash it back.
DM: Cool-
PC2: I am going to chant a prayer to Pelor. "Begone, foul spirits! You will not find your rest here!"
DM: Okay, cool. PC1, make an attack - Tide of Iron? That will Aid PC2's Religion check.
PC1: I rolled an 18.
DM: You raise your shield and push them back, giving the cleric enough time to get off his ritual.
PC2: I rolled a 10, plus 2. 12.
DM: The spirits are pushed back and around, but there are too many of them for PC1 to act as a bulwark. "Pelor's words will not save you!" they cry. They rush on you and their spectral swords cut right through you, opening no wounds but the cold of their touch saps your strength.

That's a failure. Everyone but PC1 loses a Healing Surge from their chill touch. You can't get that Surge back in your next Extended Rest.

Suddenly, from behind, you see another image - a dark knight glowing with a sickly green light. He comes down on the ghosts, cutting them down, screaming madly: "All servants of Orcus! You will not betray me! I will kill you all!"

The ghosts move away from you and confront their new foe. "Keegan, no! What madness has taken you? The Shadow Rift has your soul - fight it!" But he doesn't listen, and they fall once again before his sword.

Then he turns on you. "Orcus will not save you," he says, and advances on PC1, smashing his sword down on you. Unlike the other ghosts, this one has a physical presence, and he knocks you back. He raises his sword and cleaves into you, drawing blood...

...unless you can do something to stop him.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Something that strikes me is that the Thievery success should possibly lead to a slightly better trap than the Dungeoneering or Nature sucess - as trap-making (ie, targetting man-sized creatures) is something better covered under that skill.

Plus, if you have a rogue in the party, this will give them a chance to shine.

 

[pukunui]

I tell them what the opposition is doing, and give them a pretty good idea of what's going to happen if they do nothing. I ask them what they are going to do, and cast that as some kind of check.

DM: You are woken by a strange howling - like a cruel winter wind full of malice and hate. In the darkness, you can make out shapes coming towards you. Ethereal soldiers are rushing at you, still bearing the wounds that killed them. They rush at you, screaming words of hate: "You will die just like we did."

What do you do?

PC1: If one gets close, I'll smash it back.
DM: Cool-
PC2: I am going to chant a prayer to Pelor. "Begone, foul spirits! You will not find your rest here!"
DM: Okay, cool. PC1, make an attack - Tide of Iron? That will Aid PC2's Religion check.
PC1: I rolled an 18.
DM: You raise your shield and push them back, giving the cleric enough time to get off his ritual.
PC2: I rolled a 10, plus 2. 12.
DM: The spirits are pushed back and around, but there are too many of them for PC1 to act as a bulwark. "Pelor's words will not save you!" they cry. They rush on you and their spectral swords cut right through you, opening no wounds but the cold of their touch saps your strength.

That's a failure. Everyone but PC1 loses a Healing Surge from their chill touch. You can't get that Surge back in your next Extended Rest.

Suddenly, from behind, you see another image - a dark knight glowing with a sickly green light. He comes down on the ghosts, cutting them down, screaming madly: "All servants of Orcus! You will not betray me! I will kill you all!"

The ghosts move away from you and confront their new foe. "Keegan, no! What madness has taken you? The Shadow Rift has your soul - fight it!" But he doesn't listen, and they fall once again before his sword.

Then he turns on you. "Orcus will not save you," he says, and advances on PC1, smashing his sword down on you. Unlike the other ghosts, this one has a physical presence, and he knocks you back. He raises his sword and cleaves into you, drawing blood...

...unless you can do something to stop him.

Awesome! I love it! Thanks LostSoul!

Now, if I can just think of some way to enhance this encounter with regard to the PC wizard who, if you recall from my other thread, was raised from the dead "improperly" and thus still has one foot in the Shadowfell. I want him to experience this encounter somewhat differently. My initial thought is that perhaps the restless spirits can't see any of the PCs except the wizard? I dunno.

And, in case any of my players ask, I thought that the goblins could've been protected from the restless spirits and things by their shaman (I added a hexer to the encounter). Now that he is dead, the magical wards and things he'd put in place to ward away the spirits and make this area of the dungeon a safe place to rest have collapsed.

Something that strikes me is that the Thievery success should possibly lead to a slightly better trap than the Dungeoneering or Nature sucess - as trap-making (ie, targetting man-sized creatures) is something better covered under that skill.

Good point. I'll make traps made with Nature and Dungeoneering only do midrange damage instead of high damage.

Plus, if you have a rogue in the party, this will give them a chance to shine.

We don't, but the wizard is trained in Thievery and tends to fill in as the rogue in those sorts of situations.

The party consists of a dragonborn paladin, a minotaur fighter, a human ranger, an elf cleric, and an eladrin wizard - all 2nd level - in case it matters to anyone.

 

[pukunui]

LostSoul -- I'm hoping you can help me out a bit more. I love your ideas, but I'm still not fully sure how to implement them. How do I know when something counts as a success or a failure for the skill challenge? And how do I know when something should a "group" check vs. an individual's check? Do I only count "group" checks towards total successes and failures, or do individual checks count too? So if PC A makes a check for something but none of the others do? Or what if I have them all make a check as a reaction to something and some of them succeed and some of them don't? How do I determine if that's a success or a failure? Is it a matter of doing what it says in the DMG, where the person with the best modifier makes the actual determining check and everyone else just effectively uses "aid another"?


Here is a revised "hobgoblins at the door" scenario:
[sblock]Skill Challenge 1: Prevent the hobgoblins from breaking through the barricades
Level: 2 (625 XP)
Complexity: 2 (best 3 out of 5*)
Setup: A hobgoblin patrol alerted by Balgron has discovered the PCs in their hiding place and tries to break through the barricaded doors. If the PCs can’t keep them out, they’ll have to fight them.

When the hobgoblins first arrive, they will shout out to the PCs: “Hello in there! We have you surrounded. You’d best give yourselves up if you want to come out alive. If you don’t surrender, we’ll have to break down the door and take you by force.”

At this point, the PCs can talk to the hobgoblins.
They can use Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate (all DC 20) to trick, reason with, or scare the hobgoblins.
They can also take some time to reinforce the barricades using Dungeoneering to identify (DC 10) and fix weak spots (DC 15).
They can also use Arcana / Religion to identify (DC 10) and cast magical wards to strengthen the doors/barricades (DC 15).
History can be used to recall stories of other heroes persevering in similar circumstances (DC 10; adds +/-2 to next PC’s skill check).
Stealth can be used to trick the hobgoblins into thinking there’s no one in the room (DC 20; PC with best Stealth modifier makes actual check, everyone else just aids).

If the PCs are not able to convince the hobgoblins to go away by talking, the hobgoblins proceed to attempt to open the doors. Because Balgron escaped, he has the key to the main doors, so the hobgoblins can simply unlock it and then attempt to push it open and smash through the barricades. The PCs can repeat some of the above actions to strength the barricades or they can simply give up and fight the hobgoblins.

Special: PCs can attempt to rig traps in the barricades using Dungeoneering, Nature, or Thievery. Doing this does not contribute to the skill challenge in any way but should they fail and the hobgoblins break through, then the traps can attack and deal damage.
Dungeoneering / Nature (DC 15): Set up a trap in a barricaded square. The first time an enemy enters this square, roll a Dungeoneering or Nature vs Reflex attack. On a hit, the trap deals 2d10+3 dmg.
Thievery (DC 20): Set up a trap in a barricaded square. The first time an enemy enters this square, roll a Thievery vs Reflex attack. On a hit, the trap deals 3d8+3 dmg.

Success: The PCs keep the hobgoblins out of the room and can continue to rest. They may still have to fight the hobgoblins when they come out, though.
Failure: The hobgoblins break through and a fight ensues.


*I've decided I'm going to try using a "best out of" system for skill challenges. So best 2 out of 3, best 3 out of 5, best 4 out of 7, etc.[/sblock]


And, finally, here is my actual "survive the night in the dungeon" challenge!
[sblock]Skill Challenge 2: Survive a night in the haunted dungeon
Level: 2 (625 XP)
Complexity: 5 (best 6 out of 11)
Setup: The restless spirits of Shadowfell Keep and the malevolent influence of the nearby rift make it difficult for the PCs to get a good night’s sleep in the dungeon.

As the hours pass while the PCs hang out in the barricaded room, they begin to get the sense that they’re not alone in the room – occasional shivers, the sensation of someone breathing down their necks, footsteps, things flitting around in the corners of their eyes. After a while, Ariiat sees actual spirits floating around.
Everyone makes an Endurance (DC 15) check. Success means the PC shrugs it all off. Failure means the PC gets creeped out and can’t regain one healing surge after a rest.
Arcana / Religion can be used to identify that there are restless spirits and/or some sort of malevolent influence in the area (DC 10) and cast magical wards/recite prayers to ward them away (DC 15).
Streetwise / History can be used to tell ghost stories (DC 10). Success means the PC has told a story about heroes persevering against ghosts (+2 to next check); failure means they’ve only succeeded in spooking their allies (-2 to next check).
Other skills/skill uses as required.

Even if the PCs succeed at the first part of the challenge, the ghosts start to materialize. They are really only residual spirits, so they can’t physically harm the PCs. Although they are aware of them all, they focus their attention on Ariiat the wizard, since he still has one foot in the Shadowfell. These spirits murmur restlessly. Then one, who appears first as a beautiful eladrin woman, comes close to Ariiat. Suddenly, she transforms into a horrible, skeletal ghost and shrieks: “You will die just like we did! Innocents slaughtered by madness!”
More Endurance checks as above (DC 15).
Bluff / Diplomacy (both DC 20) can be used on the ghosts to trick/calm them. If the topic arises, the PCs can placate the ghosts by assuring them that they will find their disturbed bodies (the zombies in Area 5) and put them to rest. Intimidate only angers the spirits and they “attack” (failure to resist results in more lost healing surges).
Religion can be used to keep the spirits at bay (DC 20 when used as a turn undead style effect or DC 15 to prove that the PCs are good people, followers of the Sovereign Host, etc).
Other skills/skill uses as required.

Whether or not the PCs fail the second part, an apparition of Sir Keegan and his wife and children materializes. The PCs must witness the mad knight slaughtering his family (he calls his wife a succubus and his children demon-spawn). The PCs feel the pain of his sword blows and his wife and children’s cries chill them to the bone. He then turns to them, again addressing the wizard: “Traitors! Evil-doers! You will all die here!”
Endurance again (DC 15).
Religion again (DC 20) +2 to check if PC mentions being a follower of Dol Arrah).
Bluff / Diplomacy again (DC 20).
Failure here results in another healing surge that can’t be regained after resting.

Finally, the PCs sleep. The malevolent influence of the nearby Shadowfell rift haunts their dreams with mad visions of death and destruction and such.
Endurance checks (DC 15). Anyone who fails does something creepy like tries to strangle an ally in their sleep or dreams about killing another PC. -2 to next person’s check. “Target” can’t regain a healing surge after resting.
Arcana / Religion can be used to ward people’s dreams (DC 20).
Other skills/skill uses as required.

Success: The PCs survive the night and gain the benefits of an extended rest (less any healing surge penalties they may have accumulated during the challenge).
Failure: The PCs aren’t able to get a good rest and don’t gain the benefits of an extended rest.[/sblock]

 

[LostSoul]

I am going to split up your questions into bullet points.

LostSoul -- I'm hoping you can help me out a bit more. I love your ideas, but I'm still not fully sure how to implement them.

• 1. How do I know when something counts as a success or a failure for the skill challenge?
• 2. And how do I know when something should a "group" check vs. an individual's check?
• 3. Do I only count "group" checks towards total successes and failures, or do individual checks count too?
• 4. So if PC A makes a check for something but none of the others do?
• 5. Or what if I have them all make a check as a reaction to something and some of them succeed and some of them don't?
• 6. How do I determine if that's a success or a failure?
• 7. Is it a matter of doing what it says in the DMG, where the person with the best modifier makes the actual determining check and everyone else just effectively uses "aid another"?

First of all, it's all about the fictional situation. What's happening right here, right now?

1. When a PC takes an action that moves him towards his goal, the result of the die roll determines success or failure in the Skill Challenge. If the action doesn't move the PC towards his goal or oppose the other side, it's an Aid Another check. Use your judgement as a DM here; some checks might be Aid Another checks (even to Aid the PC making the check!), and other ones might be the "real" roll.

e.g. In the "ghosts rush at you" someone might say, "I look at their armour and think back - I know heraldry, I should know who these men once served." That's not really going to do anything, but it might give the PC some kind of advantage in an upcoming roll. I would call that an Aid Another check.

Now with that information, the PC might pass that along to another PC - or use it himself! - and give a +2 bonus to the next roll. "These are knights of Nerath, sworn to protect the Shadow Rift! Call upon their sense of duty when you rebuff them!" "I call upon the Light of Pelor - back, restless spirits, remember your oaths in life, your sworn duty to fight the taint of Orcus!"

2. It's a group check when everyone gets behind someone else and relies on that one PC - the one who is making the check - to do something to move towards their goal.

e.g. Climbing a cliff, other PCs might work up a harness and rope or point out tricky spots or good handholds, but one person actually has to climb.

It's an individual check when one person is singled out, alone, and can't get support from the rest of the group.

e.g. A swarm of bats rushes out from a hidden cave on the cliff, and he has to make a check to hang on or fall.

3. All checks should count towards success and failure, both individual ones and group ones. The difference is in the fictional situation; if one PC has been successful at all his checks, he should end up in a different fictional position from the rest of the group on success or failure.

e.g. In my KotS game, Kalarel was working a ritual to curse the PCs. The warlord had made a bluff check successfully and had moved away from Kalarel and the guards. If the skill challenge came down to a failure, he wouldn't have been cursed, but he would have been cut off from the rest of the group.

This gives you a kind of "partial success / partial failure" mechanic, and it means that you will have no idea what the end state will be. I find that is really awesome and makes for killer roleplaying.

4. This ties into the above. If he makes a check, he is changing the fictional situation. If he is successful, he's successful.

Let's say you're having a discussion with the Duke, trying to get him to aid you. The group fails, but one PC makes all his checks. The Duke won't aid, but maybe he likes the one PC (and hates the rest) and offers the PC some kind of side deal.

5. This ties into the above, again. If some succeed - say, on a long desert trek - and some fail, the ones who succeed won't lose healing surges while those who fail will.

Maybe this will mean those who succeed will have to strike off, alone, to find a source of water while the others need rest.

6. The dice determine success or failure. If the roll is high enough to beat the DC, then it's a success; if not, it's a failure.

In terms of fictional positioning, the PC should be successful at his action as he described it. It might not mean that the initial situation is resolved, but it might, even if the skill challenge is not over; if the challenge is not over, then it will morph into something else.

e.g. "I grab the Duke by the collar and yell in his face. 'Give us what we want or I'll kill you.'" Success; the Duke agrees to the demand. But the skill challenge isn't over. Now the Captain of the Guard walks in and draws steel! "Let the Duke go, assassins!"

Or maybe the Duke is afraid, cowed, but he doesn't agree to help the PCs. "The Duke cowers and whines, 'I can't...'" It's up to you as DM to decide what's the best way to go at the time based on what's best for the game.

7. Only allow Aid Another checks if other people can actually do something to Aid. If they can Aid, then whoever they are Aiding will make the check.

In the example of the guy climbing the cliff, where the bats come out, the guy climbing will need to make the check (barring some awesome player creativity).

Who makes the roll depends on the fictional situation.

In the end, Skill Challenges are a framework to help resolve conflicts in the fictional situation. The fiction is the most important thing, and you're using the Skill Challenge to fairly determine what happens, and through that, to change the situation.

This isn't the only way to run a Skill Challenge, but it's my way.

 

[Nebulous]

A lot of good ideas here. I think i can use some for my next session. We're in a similar spot, the PCs are holed up in the armory, Balgron and the hobbers are around, Keegan is yet to be encountered, and his ghostly daughters are lurking around.

 

[pukunui]

Thanks, LostSoul. That helps heaps! Man, I really wish I could play in one of your games!

Nebulous - that's right, you're the one who wanted to do the Shining. Ha ha. That's a good idea. I might do that too.

 

[pukunui]

Well, I did the skill challenges last night. I don't know that they went down all that well, though. I think most of my players don't really "get" the concept.

With the first one, I read out the hobgoblins' dialogue bit and set the scene. I gave people a few examples and had eveveryone take a turn. Some people seemed to get it -- the cleric and the paladin tried to reason with / bluff the hobgoblins, but the ranger wanted to fight them. The wizard successfully tricked the hobgoblins into thinking that they'd lit a fire right on the other side of the doors with ghost sound and an Arcana check. When I had the hobgoblins unlock the doors with Balgron's key and push them open a little bit, the minotaur fighter pushed them shut again and then jammed them together with some pitons. He rolled a natural 20 on his check, which I've houseruled counts as two successes, so at that point I decided the hobgoblins wouldn't be able to get in short of totally destroying the doors (and, in their arrogance, they figured they could just wait till the PCs came out, so they didn't do that).

So that one went OK.

Then the next one, which I think might have been too long ... one of the players complained that it was, anyway. I had them get creeped out by eery feelings and stuff (and the wizard could actually see flitty spirits). I had them all roll Endurance checks and made a note of everyone who failed. The cleric and paladin both came up with the idea of taking some holy water and painting their deities' holy symbols on all the PCs to ward away the spirits. They rolled well enough together that I allowed it to work.

But then the spirits came back in a more material form that everyone could see. I did a Raiders of the Lost Ark thing and had a beautiful eladrin ghost come up to the wizard and transform into a hideous undead thing. More Endurance checks. This time they tried reasoning with the ghosts. And the eladrin successfully used History to relate an old eladrin tale about putting ghosts to rest peacefully or something (I forget exactly). One of the other PCs tried to convince the ghosts that they were there to help. So the ghosts told them that their bodies had been disturbed and that if the PCs really wanted to help they would find the bodies and put them to rest.

Then Sir Keegan appeared and slaughtered his family in front of them. More Endurance checks. They tried reasoning with him (but oddly enough the player of the paladin of Dol Arrah, of whom Sir Keegan was also a paladin in my campaign, didn't use this to his advantage, not even after several of us had pointed it out to him ... sigh) but were not successful. At this point, I didn't really know what to do. I didn't want them trying to fight a ghost or anything, so I just said that he disappeared as quickly as he'd come and chocked it down as a failure.

Then the sleeping. I told them that in the night, they had lots of bad dreams of death and destruction and such. More Endurance checks. This time, unfortunately for me, they all made their checks, so the dreams didn't affect them and I wasn't able to do any of the "sleep strangling" and stuff.

And that was that. They got more successes than failures so I just tallied up all the times that individual PCs had failed their Endurance checks and then told everyone that they got all the benefits of an extended rest less the number of failed checks in healing surges. The ranger made all his checks, so he was fully rested the next morning and couldn't understand what was bothering everyone else ... it was just a few ghosts after all. Who's afraid of ghosts?

After that, I decided that Ninaran would "lure" the hobgoblins away and then get the PCs to follow her back to town for the Dead Walk encounter. I had it snowing the whole time, which wasn't as fun as I thought it would be because it ended up just being "Don't forget! -2 to hit because of the snow!" And then the cleric cast Bless, so it was only -1 to hit.

Anyway, as the PCs were making short work of all the minion skeletons, I decided to make things more interesting and had the magic circle rejuvenate the skeletons every few rounds. It took beating down the skeletons and having them all get back up again a few times before the players caught on to the idea that this would keep happening until they deactivated the circle. That made things more interesting -- and one of my players said he enjoyed the skill challenge mixed in with the combat more than the pure skill challenges.

I have to agree that the dynamic of having some of the PCs trying to do the skill challenge while other PCs tried to keep the enemy monsters away was pretty cool. I can see that working really well in the future with things like complex locks or traps that some PCs have to deactivate while the others fight off a guardian monster or something. If I keep the trap room in KotS, I think I might put a monster or two in there as well.

 

[LostSoul]

Quick question: did you tell them they had to make Endurance checks, or describe what was happening to them and ask "So what are you going to do about it?"

Then Sir Keegan appeared and slaughtered his family in front of them. More Endurance checks. They tried reasoning with him (but oddly enough the player of the paladin of Dol Arrah, of whom Sir Keegan was also a paladin in my campaign, didn't use this to his advantage, not even after several of us had pointed it out to him ... sigh) but were not successful. At this point, I didn't really know what to do. I didn't want them trying to fight a ghost or anything, so I just said that he disappeared as quickly as he'd come and chocked it down as a failure.

I probably would have abstracted the fight down to a single group check. Giving a +2 or +4 to the attack roll if the Power used seemed really fitting given the situation.

Since they failed the first roll, the one that got them into the fight, I'd have no problem saying that a success means they (whoever Keegan is fighting, which could be more than one PC) lose 1 healing surge, and failure means they lose 2. On failure, maybe Keegan retreats, maybe they fight well enough to push him away, or maybe not; maybe the fight will continue until the PCs are successful.

 

[pukunui]

Quick question: did you tell them they had to make Endurance checks, or describe what was happening to them and ask "So what are you going to do about it?"

In this instance, I actually asked them to make Endurance checks after each segment. Otherwise they wouldn't have had a clue what to do and they all would've lost a healing surge each time ... my group needs guidance. If left to their own devices, they just flounder around and fail repeatedly, which isn't very fun for anyone.

I probably would have abstracted the fight down to a single group check. Giving a +2 or +4 to the attack roll if the Power used seemed really fitting given the situation.

Since they failed the first roll, the one that got them into the fight, I'd have no problem saying that a success means they (whoever Keegan is fighting, which could be more than one PC) lose 1 healing surge, and failure means they lose 2. On failure, maybe Keegan retreats, maybe they fight well enough to push him away, or maybe not; maybe the fight will continue until the PCs are successful.

OK.