D&D General Skill challenges: action resolution that centres the fiction

clearstream

(He, Him)
DMG2 p86

“A character who performs a relevant ritual or uses a daily power deserves to notch at least I success toward the party's goal.”

So 1 auto-success + 1 success for hitting the DC for amplified Eagle’s Flight.
Ah, right. So they spend the 400gp for the Eagle's Flight components, and roll Nature to find their overland flight. If it is high enough they notch 2 successes, otherwise 1. Is that right? Is this recurring? Like, they can keep rolling Nature? Or once off? (I mean, how many successes are you allowing Nature as a primary skill to contribute?)
 

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clearstream

(He, Him)
As a side note, these two quotes from BitD for me explain how clocks can deliver on a goal of centering on the fiction

It’s the GM’s job to tick a clock so it reflects the fictional situation.

When you create a clock, make it about the obstacle, not the method.

I read these to mean that GM isn't seeking for any specific list of abilities to be used, and the clock bends to the fiction, while being typically a trigger for a watershed or inflection point in that fiction. Ticks for character actions are concretely tied to effect level. The mechanic is simple and powerful. I think it is right in the ballpark of what the OP has in mind, or advocates for.
 
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pemerton

Legend
and a preset count of successes/failures, that will resolve the SC.
I'll repost from the OP, which quotes the original printing of the 4e DMG:

This centrality of the fiction is reinforced by this from the DMG (pp 72, 75):

a skill challenge is defined by its context in an adventure. . . . In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no. . . . it’s particularly important to make sure these checks are grounded in actions that make sense in the adventure and the situation.​
I've bolded the salient bit.
 

pemerton

Legend
DMG2 p86

“A character who performs a relevant ritual or uses a daily power deserves to notch at least I success toward the party's goal.”
To this, we could add the following from the original printing of the 4e DMG, p 74:

Characters might have access to utility powers or rituals that can help them. These might allow special uses of skills, perhaps with a bonus. Rituals in particular might grant an automatic success or remove failures from the running total.​

It's not like the basic principles for inferring skill challenge successes from players' expenditure of their resources (powers, rituals, etc) were kept secret! They're stated there in plain language.
 

pemerton

Legend
The GM decides the state of the world before each action is declared and resolved. The action then determines the resolution.

<snip>

PCs get to make a sensible decision to the best of their ability and information, in an attempt to better resolve the situation in their favor. You can make a decision that will result in a strictly better outcome.
For practical purposes it is impossible for the GM to decide the state of the world, in all relevant respects, before each action is declared and resolved. Which guards know the password? Is their knowledge out-of-date due to a password change? Where is everyone in the castle? How many of them might recognise a disguised PC? Which accents will they treat as foreign or suspicious?

In my experience, the practical upshot of the sort of approach you advocate - once the fiction becomes richer than the artificially austere environment of a classic D&D dungeon - is that the GM has to make stuff up as they go along prior to actions being declared and resolved, or else introduce new fiction into the situation as part of success or failure narration. The first case puts the shape of the fiction primarily into the hands of the GM. The second case does likewise, unless (and to borrow @Manbearcat's phrase) the GM is on some sort of "budget". A skill challenge is exactly that sort of rationing device. The GM has no more than N moves (and maybe 2 fewer, if the players roll no failures) before they are obliged to narrate a final conclusion to the situation. No more than N troublesome townsfolk, password-forgetting guards, suspicious responses to accents, etc.

Again speaking from my own experience, the closed scene approach (or other, somewhat comparable approaches, such as Burning Wheel's combination of intent and task, say 'yes' or roll the dice and fail forward) has two benefits over the approach you advocate:

* It produces more interesting play, in the sense that the players do not have to try to puzzle out the GM's - perhaps ad hoc - conception of the fictional situation, and instead can follow their own sense of the fiction and (if their checks succeed) make that part of the shared fiction;

* It produces more interesting fiction, in the sense of fiction that more closely resembles the inspirational fiction (eg JRRT/LotR, REH/Conan, etc).​

Here's an example to illustrate what I mean - the resolution is Cortex+ Heroic Fantasy (ie Marvel Heroic RP adapted to a different set of tropes - in our case, mythical Vikings), but skill challenges are similar enough:

Cresting a ridge and looking down into the valley below, they can see - at the base of the rise on the opposite side - a large steading. Very large indeed, as they approach it, with 15' walls, doors 10' high and 8' wide, etc. And with a terrible smell. (Scene distinctions: Large Steading, Reeks of Smoke and Worse.)

<snip>

Meanwhile (I can't quite remember the action order) the scout has climbed up onto the top of the pallisade, gaining an Overview of the Steading asset

<snip>

the swordthane opening up negotations with Loge, the giant chief, including - in response to a demand for tribute - offering up the steed as a gift; the scout, after successfully parlaying his Overview of the Steading asset into a Giant Ox in the Barn asset, leading the ox into the hall and trying to trade it for the return of the horse, and failing (despite the giant chief's Slow distinction counting as a d4), and subsequently avoiding being eaten (a stepped-up Put in Mouth complication, as per the Giant datafile in the Guide) only by wedging the giant's mouth open with his knife (a heavily PP-pumped reaction roll)
To me, these events seem to more closely evoke the feel of Viking myths and related fairy tales - spying the ox, and then trying to trick the dim-witted giant chief into trading back the horse for his own ox, and then narrowly avoiding being eaten when the deception is seen through - than would happen if the resolution was based on GM notes + discreet action resolution. (What happens if the GM doesn't think to note a barn in the steading, or a giant ox? Why should such an interesting fictional element be contingent on the GM thinking of it?)

Here's an example from a 4e skill challenge:

He invited them back to his home, where it quickly became clear that he didn't really want their company, but rather wanted them to help him with a problem - he was expecting a visit in a few days from his Duke overlord, but his special apple grove was not fruiting as it normally would.

This was an adaptation to 4e mechanics and backstory of the scenario "The Demon of the Red Grove" in Robin Laws's HeroWars Narrator's Book. The reason for the trees in the grove not fruiting is that a demon, long bound there, has recently been awoken but remains trapped within the grove, and hence is cursing the trees. Mechanically, this was resolved as a skill challenge. First the PCs had to endure the demon's three cries of "Go Away!" (group checks, with failing PCs taking psychic damage - the sorcerer, who is also a multi-class bard, was the most flamboyant here, spending his Rhythm of Disorientation encounter power to open up the use of Diplomacy for the check, which in the fiction was him singing a song of apples blossoming in the summer). Somewhere during this process the cleric-ranger and invoker both succeeded at Perception checks and could hear the high-pitched whistling of a song bird. And the sorcerer's Arcana check revealed the presence of the demon - an ancient and mighty glabrezu (level 27 solo, as I told the players in order to try to convey the requisite sense of gravity).
I don't know how the discreet action approach factors in the Elven singing of a song of apples blossoming in the summer, or even really how it gives a clear "weight" (or as @AbdulAlhazred sometimes puts it "valence) to the Perception and Arcana checks that reveal the truth of the magical situation.

In a skill challenge these are easy to resolve. And the resulting fiction is colourful, engaging, and reflects the players' as well as the GM's conceptions of the situation.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
To this, we could add the following from the original printing of the 4e DMG, p 74:

Characters might have access to utility powers or rituals that can help them. These might allow special uses of skills, perhaps with a bonus. Rituals in particular might grant an automatic success or remove failures from the running total.​

It's not like the basic principles for inferring skill challenge successes from players' expenditure of their resources (powers, rituals, etc) were kept secret! They're stated there in plain language.
For sure. To clarify my query, when I first read @Manbearcat's post I parsed it out as an ongoing +1s to the check. Granting +1s to a check is distinct in my mind to granting +1s. It's something that SC's provide for, but only for challenges of complexity 3+. Hence my follow up question (about recurrence.)
 

Ah, right. So they spend the 400gp for the Eagle's Flight components, and roll Nature to find their overland flight. If it is high enough they notch 2 successes, otherwise 1. Is that right? Is this recurring? Like, they can keep rolling Nature? Or once off? (I mean, how many successes are you allowing Nature as a primary skill to contribute?)

In the first iteration of the situation depicted above, they’ve overcome the initial obstacle of the intervening distance between the PC and the territory of the Ankheg, so now you’re framing new fiction to either locate or attract the Ankheg to you:

GM: “The earth flattens out before you, the deeply sunken wheel ruts of the overgrown path cross-cross a site of ruination beneath you; massive chunks of worked stone, jagged shards of prismatic Makerglass, buzzing and glowing Aetherium ingots, lay strewn everywhere for many square miles.

The signs of what look like a massive mole digging and locomoting beneath the ground…

This is the sight your friends told you about. The huge beast’s territory. The clock is ticking. What do you do?”

(a) Eagle’s Flight has a duration of 12 hours so it’s still running.

(b) The micro-objective is to draw the creature out (maybe with an Earth manipulation spell or knocking over a massive chunk of tower…the creature’s prey is big so, like a spider, it would be looking for the signature of Large + prey traversing it’s territory) or track down the subtle signs of its present location and maybe use Tread the Earth to burrow or something and invade its underground lair directly?

So, just like in any other form of play the answer to the obstacle before the players must attend to the present fiction/dilemma; some clever solution and made move. That’ll get you a success (or more) in the gamestate. That will move the fiction forward (to a new obstacle or adverse fiction on an adjacent complication and spiraling gamestate on a failure).

EDIT - If the player’s next move made (given the obstacle) is to surveil the area for the freshest moved earth using the bird’s eye view they have on Overland Flight, then they can have a +2 Circumstance Bonus to their Perception check given the advantageous fictional positioning. I would probably use the Hard DC that I have in my pocket here due to the huge area they’ll gave to trull aerially and due to the ticking clock.
 
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clearstream

(He, Him)
I'll repost from the OP, which quotes the original printing of the 4e DMG:

I've bolded the salient bit.
Requoted here for other readers

In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no
Again, for sure. The conclusions I draw from it are probably where we diverge.
  • On the one hand, supposing we part from our primary and secondary skill lists - which as you show is intended - then what is the real value of that mechanical furniture over clocks, which are my comparative?
  • On the other hand, if we adhere entirely or largely to our skill lists, resisting additions, then I think that could be read to justify a feeling of railroading that some posters describe themselves experiencing.
Where GM extemporises, (increasing success counts, admitting in additional skills) I think they can also could run foul of a secondary goal that you and others might have for SCs, which is to avoid GM-decisions that are opaque, arbitrary, at risk of inconsistency.

In truth, that likely does more to suggest that apparent gulfs between our preferences might come down to what we are willing to count sufficiently or better constrained. Do we all agree on what counts as "sufficient" or "better"? Probably not! @Manbearcat put forward in this thread (and so far as I recall in many places elsewhere) numerous good motives for preferring more rather than fewer system constraints, but then if we are going to grasp and uphold as central a rule in the game text that relieves us of constraints we seem to be going rather against that.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
In the first iteration of the situation depicted above, they’ve overcome the initial obstacle of the intervening distance between the PC and the territory of the Ankheg, so now you’re framing new fiction to either locate or attract the Ankheg to you:

GM: “The earth flattens out before you, the deeply sunken wheel ruts of the overgrown path cross-cross a site of ruination beneath you; massive chunks of worked stone, jagged shards of prismatic Makerglass, buzzing and glowing Aetherium ingots, lay strewn everywhere for many square miles.

The signs of what look like a massive mole digging and locomoting beneath the ground…

This is the sight your friends told you about. The huge beast’s territory. The clock is ticking. What do you do?”

(a) Eagle’s Flight has a duration of 12 hours so it’s still running.

(b) The micro-objective is to draw the creature out (maybe with an Earth manipulation spell or knocking over a massive chunk of tower…the creature’s prey is big so, like a spider, it would be looking for the signature of Large + prey traversing it’s territory) or track down the subtle signs of its present location and maybe use Tread the Earth to burrow or something and invade its underground lair directly?

So, just like in any other form of play the answer to the obstacle before the players must attend to the present fiction/dilemma; some clever solution and made move. That’ll get you a success (or more) in the gamestate. That will move the fiction forward (to a new obstacle or adverse fiction on an adjacent complication and spiraling gamestate on a failure).

EDIT - If the player’s next move made (given the obstacle) is to surveil the area for the freshest moved earth using the bird’s eye view they have on Overland Flight, then they can have a +2 Circumstance Bonus to their Perception check given the advantageous fictional positioning. I would probably use the Hard DC that I have in my pocket here due to the huge area they’ll gave to trull aerially and due to the ticking clock.
That all makes sense, thanks! I see that my initial reading wasn't what you intended.
 

That all makes sense, thanks! I see that my initial reading wasn't what you intended.

Since you’re familiar with Torchbearer, a good way to look at Skill Challenges might be Torchbearer adventure and resolution design. Take a quick look at the Adventure Budget:

Problem Areas

The larger the adventure location is, the harder it becomes.

* An adventure with four to six areas or obstacles can be tackled in two or three sessions.

* An adventure with 10 to 12 areas or obstacles requires four to six sessions to complete.

* An adventure with 18 to 20 obstacles or areas is quite large and requires six to ten sessions to complete.

Difficulty Level

The obstacles in the adventure should fall into one of three tiers:

* There should be a handful of obstacles that are easy to deal with: a few monsters with Nature 2-3 and obstacles set at 1-2.

* The bulk of the obstacles should be Ob 3-5 and most opponents should be able to muster roughly the same amount of dice as the party (typically 7D for a test without leveraging traits, persona points and wises).

* There should be one obstacle that is simply too much for the characters to handle: a creature with Might 5 or 6 or with Nature 8 or higher or an area containing obstacles rated at 6+.

Looks an awful lot like a combination of Skill Challenge Complexity and Level!

Then consider the Fail Forward "Twist but Fun Once" action resolution that undergirds Torchbearer:

Twist
Twists are new challenges to overcome. They can be immediate obstacles—you’re ambushed while you dither at the door!—or something
that causes trouble further down the line. Twists can also be played so that the character appears to have succeeded at their task, but in truth
they’ve just waded deeper into trouble.

Dralic searches the dark stairs for traps and fails his Scout test. When the group arrives at the bottom of the stair, they’re ambushed by a manticore. Well done, Dralic.

Fun Once

Don’t make the same tests for the same obstacle twice. Either the players have bypassed the original obstacle or it stands but they
have to find another way around—testing another ability or skill against another obstacle.

Torchbearer Short to Medium Adventure Budget + Difficulty Level + Success or Twists but Fun Once is basically the same architecture/engine (broadly) as 4e Skill Challenges.
 

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