Skill Challenges: Bringing the Awesome

Crosswind said:
1.) The statement "You have begun a skill challenge" will never be used. It is up to the players to decide when they want to solve a problem.
For me, initiative will be rolled. So yes, I will formally announce the initiation of a skill challenge. I have newer players. They appreciate this sort of thing.
2.) When the players want to solve a problem, they can announce what they want to do. Each of them can roll against static DCs to try to accomplish what they want (If part of the plan is "climb a wall", I would hope there is a DC for wall-climbing in the PHB).
Skill challenges often take place in a context of opposed effort. For example, a success at "I climb the wall to escape the guards" means that you have to not only climb the wall yourself, you have to do so faster than the guards climb the wall. For this, I will use the stated DC for climbing a wall of a particular type as a floor, and set the challenge DC above it. For example, if a particular wall is DC 10, and the challenge is a DC 15 challenge, a character who rolls below a 10 has failed to climb the wall at all. Meanwhile a character who rolls between 10 and 14 has climbed the wall but has been followed by the guards and lost ground.

The rest I agree with. Nothing to add.
 

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Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Hmm. Storm-Bringer reminds me of someone.

So, Storm-Bringer, what do you think about Dragons without spells?

;)
Makes no real difference to me. But I would prefer that you come right out and say what you mean.
 

I've thought about this for a bit, and I really think it's going to take a good bit of on-the-table-use to really get a feel of when/how skill challenges are helpful, but my current thoughts are:

Given the two play examples I know of – "escape from Sembia" and "find the secret of the tree" – "escape from Sembia" seems like a far more compelling use, and I think it's because it's more abstract. Without the skill challenge mechanic, escaping a city can easily involve a whole ridiculous mess of prep work, unless you just talk through it, in which case you risk it not feeling very important. Using a skill challenge for that allows you to run through a dramatic scene and have some suspense from the dice without mapping out gatehouses and statting out all the freaking guards. It's a godsend.

The "secret of the tree" scenario, on the other hand, is quite concrete, so it throws some of the mushiness of the skill challenge mechanic into sharper relief, and furthermore I'd argue it's not much of a win in terms of DM prep time over the stock 3e method – static DCs for specific skill checks – or even 1e's method of dealing with stuff like that, which was usually talk-through-it-plus-maybe-a-few-arbitrary-dice-rolls. Which leaves us with other metrics, on which skill challenges are not clearly very much better than previous methods.

But as a tool to help a group wing it when playing out complex, abstract scenes, skill challenges seem awfully useful.
 

Cadfan said:
For me, initiative will be rolled. So yes, I will formally announce the initiation of a skill challenge. I have newer players. They appreciate this sort of thing.

Fair 'nuff - I have older players, who don't -particularly- like gamist terms popping up. "Roll initiative" is sort of required, but aside from that, we try not to delineate between various phases of the game.

And yeah. What you said about variable DCs is, obviously, correct. The point I was sort of trying to make was that the DC will reflect the task they're attempting to do. Not a pre-set "easy, medium, hard" DC that's level-appropriate.

-Cross
 

Storminator said:
I can see other inputs besides skills as well. Perhaps someone uses a spell or a power to gain a success.

Yeah, that part I'm really looking forward to seeing. The skill challenge doesn't look different from a number of other games I play. But if you add combat powers and spells into the mix, then you get a very D&D experience.
 

Imp said:
But as a tool to help a group wing it when playing out complex, abstract scenes, skill challenges seem awfully useful.
Agreed. I am not much for abstracting this kind of play, but in a pinch, if the players are trying something the DM didn't plan for, it works well as a guideline for resolving it. Especially if it is something that isn't plot-intensive.
 

LostSoul said:
Yeah, that part I'm really looking forward to seeing. The skill challenge doesn't look different from a number of other games I play. But if you add combat powers and spells into the mix, then you get a very D&D experience.

We had this happen in our Escape from Sembia game. The wizard decided to use one of his bursts to distract the guards.
 

Except when they aren't. Because the skill challenge system doesn't track what skills you use, just how many. So, climbing a rope, talking to a stablehand, recalling trivia, or any other skill has the exact same value. It doesn't matter how or where you climb the rope, just that you do or don't so the appropriate tally can be marked. A player could use any other skill interchangeably for any particular part of a skill challenge. Outside of a skill challenge, climbing a rope has a direct effect, ie my character is higher up on the rope. Inside a skill challenge, it is a tally towards "win", but being higher on a rope has no further effect on the skill challenge overall. If the DM awards a bonus for the next roll because of it, we are back to 'pixel-hunting' (albeit more a more limited form), and it directly contravenes the stated problem of 'one player in the spotlight' this whole system is designed to prevent. You will still have the Diplomacy guy sweeping in to make their roll to give everyone else the bonus.
You don't make a skill challenge out of climbing a rope.
But if you roll your Climb/Athletics check as part of a skill challenge, you do prove your "Climbing Prowess". Your skill counts for something!

Skill challenge are appropriate for situations where you, in the standard "task-based skill check" system, you'd have to map out a lot of possibilities. This can, if insufficiently prepared and unable to adapt, lead to the infamous pixel-hunt.

The "Escape from Sembia" example is a nice example. Imagine you had to run this scenario, and you wanted to give the players a lot of options. This would have to mean you have to basically have the whole layout of the city prepared, possibly including guard patrol routes and so on - or randomly determine what kind of obstacles or skill checks they have to face.

The latter is already very close to a skill challenge, but the skill challenge eliminates the randomness of what you do and replaces it with "narrative control by players". Mechanically, that's just that they get to choose their skills on their own. But in terms of the roleplaying experience, this feels very different - since it's you are who is choosing the skill you use, you get (but also have to) explain how you use it, leading to a more interesting story being told.
Off course, if you're not interested in the storyteling/roleplaying part, you don't have to do that, but you shouldn't complain then that the system feels lacking role-playing wise.

Storm-Bringer said:
Makes no real difference to me. But I would prefer that you come right out and say what you mean.
But that would ruin the joke.
There was one poster that felt this topic was very important - he hated spell-less dragons, off course - and never seemed to react to any counter-argument, falling back on things already said. Interestingly, I can only read quotes from him these days, and my enjoyment of the boards have improved since then...
 

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Imagine you had to run this scenario, and you wanted to give the players a lot of options. This would have to mean you have to basically have the whole layout of the city prepared, possibly including guard patrol routes and so on - or randomly determine what kind of obstacles or skill checks they have to face.

Or, you could just 'wing it', responding to the various propositions the the players make and creating content as needed. This is almost exactly like having a skill challenge, sans the arbitrary tally of abstract successes and failures.

Or, you could use a narrative map instead, in which various decisions moved the party between preplanned scenes and challenges. That you wouldn't have to have the whole city layout prepared (much of which would go unused anyway). And you could combine that with 'winging it' when or if the party went off the map.

Or you could really mix it up and use a combination of random encounters, a game map, a narrative map, and winging it - which is what most DMs are doing after they've been on the job for a couple of years.

All of which is really quite reutine. In a typical city escape challenge, you have some rough idea of the physical layout of the city and the hazards of escaping it (are thier natural obstacles?, is it on an island?, is it walled?, does it have regular patrols?, does it have streets or canals?, how big is it?, how deep within the city are the players?, what section of the city are they in?, etc.) You have some idea of the demographics of your campaign and the city in particular (what level are typical guards in my campaign world?, what races inhabit the city?, what resouces do the pursuers have?). So you respond to the PC's propositions and set the challenge according to what they do. If they want to flee, well then you improvise a chase scene, possibily with a couple prepared (or at least preimagined) chase scenarios. If they want to fight, well then you improvise some combat. If they want to talk, then you improvise that. Perhaps they end up doing a bit of everything.

The only problem with it is that it makes a lousy system for handling a tournament encounter because it doesn't communicate to the end GM user exactly how you wanted the encounter to play out. It's too abstract. It leaves too much up to GM judgement. It is not going to be played out consistantly between groups.

Enter the skill challenge system.

The latter is already very close to a skill challenge, but the skill challenge eliminates the randomness of what you do and replaces it with "narrative control by players".

In other words, its alot like 'winging' it.

Mechanically, that's just that they get to choose their skills on their own. But in terms of the roleplaying experience, this feels very different - since it's you are who is choosing the skill you use, you get (but also have to) explain how you use it, leading to a more interesting story being told.

How is this any different than what we have now? If someone tells me, "I want make a history check", they are going to have to tell me what they want to learn. If they don't, they don't do anything. If you want to jump, you have to tell me where you are jumping.

In fact, in the extreme, as it is the players don't really need to know how the skill system works. They could simply say, "I want to do this.", and I could handle it behind the scenes as a skill check. In that way, you'd be gauranteed to have a role playing experience where you explain what your character is doing in the game world rather than just explaining the rules you are using.

Off course, if you're not interested in the storyteling/roleplaying part, you don't have to do that, but you shouldn't complain then that the system feels lacking role-playing wise.

Uh huh. You of course are perched on the RPG high ground looking down at all of us mere hack and slashers.
 

Celebrim said:
Or, you could just 'wing it', responding to the various propositions the the players make and creating content as needed. This is almost exactly like having a skill challenge, sans the arbitrary tally of abstract successes and failures.

Since winging it is inherently arbitrary, the arbitrary tally of successes and failures can't be that much of a hindrance.
 

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