AtomicPope
Hero
There is a great deal of miscommunication going around these boards concerning Skill Challenges. All of it comes from inadequate reading and comprehension of the material. I’d like to start by abolishing a myth of Skill Challenges:
There is no need for mathematical models to support a new system of challenges if you understand the current system. Utility Powers are made to work with Skill Challenges improving the success rate of each individual group member by 25% or more. I played in sanctioned WotC 4e games prior to release and quickly discovered that Utility Powers were key in overcoming Skill Challenges. In addition, all characters have access to Magic Items which significantly increase their chance of success with a given skill. Powers and Items are integral to the design of all 4e target numbers, be it Defenses or Skill Checks. Not understanding this is the acme of failure in Fourth Edition.
Useful Negotiation Utilities
The sample Skill Challenge, found on page 76 of the DMG, gives a simplified example of what a Skill Challenge looks like. Here is a short list of Utility Powers that are useful in The Negotiation sample Skill Challenge:
Cleric
• Good Omens – Utility 12: (targets you and each ally in 10 squares) Targets gain +5 Power Bonus to all D20 rolls until the end of your next turn, but the targets cannot score critical hits while this is in effect.
Paladin
• Astral Speech – Utility 2: You gain a +4 power bonus to Diplomacy checks until the end of the encounter.
• One Heart, One Mind – Utility 6: Until the end of the encounter targets can communicate telepathically with each other out to a range of 20 squares, and your aid another actions give a +4 bonus instead of a +2.
Ranger
• Crucial Advice – Utility 2: Grant one ally the ability to reroll the skill check, with a power bonus equal to your Wisdom Modifier.
• Skilled Companion – Utility 6: An ally within 10 squares of you who attempts an untrained check with a skill in which you are trained gains a power bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier. Lasts until the end of the encounter.
Rogue
• Master of Deceit – Utility 2: Free Action. Reroll a Bluff check.
• Mob Mentality – Utility 6: Close Burst 10. Targets gain a +2 bonus to Charisma based skills and ability checks until the end of your next turn.
Warlock
• Beguiling Tongue – Utility 2: You gain a +5 power bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate checks until the end of this encounter.
• Dark One’s Own Luck – Utility 6: Reroll the attack roll, skill check, ability check, or saving throw, using the higher of the two results.
Useful Magic Items in a Skill Challenge
There are also a great number of magic items that improve the skills of characters. Unlike 3e, characters other than Rogues have access to tools that provide bonuses for skill intensive situations. For the Negotiation the characters involved would benefit from:
• Circlet of Authority – Level 7: Gain a +2 item bonus to Diplomacy checks and Intimidate checks.
• Diadem of Acuity – Level 8: Gain a +2 item bonus to Insight checks.
Optimal Negotiation
The key to any skill challenge is to inform the players. Continuing with The Negotiation example, any group containing several of the characters with the utility powers described and a magic item should have a significantly better chance to succeed. The original quote was concerned with a 50% failure rate yet never bothered with reading into the design of 4e as described in PHB, DMG, Races and Classes or Worlds and Monsters, which explicited stated that Items and Powers are part of every facet in 4e design. Adding a single magic item and using a simple Utility Power can reduce failure by 35% per individual, while creating an even lower risk of failure using Aid Other and Powers allowing rerolls. Skill Challenges are intended to drain PC's of their resources (Utility Powers) in order to succeed. This is no accident.
In The Negotiation if a party included Bob Marley the Paladin with One Heart, One Mind Utility Power (stupid name, useful power) they could work together telepathically and succeed in convincing the Baron to aid them – no surprises there. Skilled characters would be aided to have anywhere from a +4 to a +16 bonus to skilled checks – failing only on a one. Considering that many parties will include at least a Rogue, Ranger or Warlock they will have several utilities at their disposal to aid them in The Negotiation. A Warlock with Beguiling Tongue would be invaluable to any Diplomatic Skill Challenge, gaining an additional +5 power bonus to every skill check possible. Trained skill checks made by a Beguiling Warlock could have a 75% or greater success rate not including Item bonuses. Any party that includes a half-elf improves the entire party’s Diplomacy skill (racial power) while adding another skilled negotiator in their own right.
Failures in a Skill Challenge
Based on several accounts read on these and other forums I’ve noticed many reasons for Skill Challenge failure rested in the gamers themselves. There is a nasty habit of DM’s to immediately say NO whenever an opportunity presents itself. In 4e this is wrong. That might have been fine in previous editions but it’s time to learn from past mistakes and move on. The entire core of 4e is built on saying yes. The Skill Challenge system allows for creativity which can only exist if the DM follows the rules and says yes, however reluctant (DMG pg 28 and 73).
A Simple Game
One game I played in involved a Skill Challenge where we were being chased by city guards - Urban Chase. Playing a Dragonborn Paladin, I used the Intimidate skill saying, “I’ll scare the onlookers outside of this alley so they won’t tell the city guard which way we went. If you tell the guards anything I’ll kill you! just to rattle them and give us time.” Sure it wasn’t a listed skill for the challenge (making it a Hard DC) but as a Dragonborn Paladin trained in Intimidate the odds weren’t completely against me. Using Intimidate allowed me to try a different skill with a better chance of success then if I had tried Athletics (Full Plate and Heavy Shield is a -4!) and I received a +2 bonus for creativity because that’s just the sort of thing that happens in a police chase. The Warlord continued with the Cops schtick by bashing a door down allowing us to take a short cut through some stranger’s house (making a Str Check to aid rather than the Skill Check). The DM then gave the Rogue a +4 bonus on Streetwise to help us lose the guards (+2 for aid and +2 for having a good idea). The challenges taught me to be dynamic, open to change and reasonable.
Success in Skill Challenges
1) Inform the Players – Our DM was very clear on what skills would be most useful. He encouraged us to review our characters and think of other skills that would be equally as useful. The worst thing a DM can do is half-ass. Giving players inadequate information will certainly lead to failure, confusion and frustration. If the players don’t know what the Challenge entails they’ll choose the wrong skills, waste their Utility Powers or won’t phrase their ideas for secondary skills properly and accrue penalties.
2) Be Open Minded – DM's cannot be too adversarial because they're holding all the cards. It's important to keep in mind that some characters will be completely useless in a certain Skill Challenge. By allowing them to use their best Skills you can give them an opportunity to do something other than grant a +2 aid bonus. Also, a Hard DC isn’t that hard to a character specialized in a particular skill. You could be preventing a character from using a trained skill with a +2 racial bonus, +2 item bonus (or more), +3 feat bonus and a +5 power bonus (or more). Yes, that’s at least +17 before stat modifiers and levels are included! By saying no a clever PC just missed their opportunity to shine (and the party probably just racked up another failure).
3) Reward Clever Ideas – Just because it’s a Skill Challenge doesn’t mean that only skills are allowed. Characters should also be able to make ability checks if the situation calls for it. When our Warlord broke down the door we all cheered. We had 4 failures (three in a row) and only 7 successes. That put us back on track and made it possible for us to escape. By presenting reasonable ways in which a skill could be useful we received a +2 bonus. This doesn’t mean rewarding a player who says, “I use knowledge Nature.” This is where players must also pull their weight. Ideas must be compelling otherwise you’ll end up with a penalty for being lame.
The above information is correct but it is hopelessly incomplete. This is understandable considering it's a new system. It's important to keep in mind that Characters gain access to Skill Modifiers from myriad sources other than Skill Training, half-level, and Stat Modifier which brings their total skill far beyond what is being presented here.Stalker0 said:
There is no need for mathematical models to support a new system of challenges if you understand the current system. Utility Powers are made to work with Skill Challenges improving the success rate of each individual group member by 25% or more. I played in sanctioned WotC 4e games prior to release and quickly discovered that Utility Powers were key in overcoming Skill Challenges. In addition, all characters have access to Magic Items which significantly increase their chance of success with a given skill. Powers and Items are integral to the design of all 4e target numbers, be it Defenses or Skill Checks. Not understanding this is the acme of failure in Fourth Edition.
Useful Negotiation Utilities
The sample Skill Challenge, found on page 76 of the DMG, gives a simplified example of what a Skill Challenge looks like. Here is a short list of Utility Powers that are useful in The Negotiation sample Skill Challenge:
Cleric
• Good Omens – Utility 12: (targets you and each ally in 10 squares) Targets gain +5 Power Bonus to all D20 rolls until the end of your next turn, but the targets cannot score critical hits while this is in effect.
Paladin
• Astral Speech – Utility 2: You gain a +4 power bonus to Diplomacy checks until the end of the encounter.
• One Heart, One Mind – Utility 6: Until the end of the encounter targets can communicate telepathically with each other out to a range of 20 squares, and your aid another actions give a +4 bonus instead of a +2.
Ranger
• Crucial Advice – Utility 2: Grant one ally the ability to reroll the skill check, with a power bonus equal to your Wisdom Modifier.
• Skilled Companion – Utility 6: An ally within 10 squares of you who attempts an untrained check with a skill in which you are trained gains a power bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier. Lasts until the end of the encounter.
Rogue
• Master of Deceit – Utility 2: Free Action. Reroll a Bluff check.
• Mob Mentality – Utility 6: Close Burst 10. Targets gain a +2 bonus to Charisma based skills and ability checks until the end of your next turn.
Warlock
• Beguiling Tongue – Utility 2: You gain a +5 power bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate checks until the end of this encounter.
• Dark One’s Own Luck – Utility 6: Reroll the attack roll, skill check, ability check, or saving throw, using the higher of the two results.
Useful Magic Items in a Skill Challenge
There are also a great number of magic items that improve the skills of characters. Unlike 3e, characters other than Rogues have access to tools that provide bonuses for skill intensive situations. For the Negotiation the characters involved would benefit from:
• Circlet of Authority – Level 7: Gain a +2 item bonus to Diplomacy checks and Intimidate checks.
• Diadem of Acuity – Level 8: Gain a +2 item bonus to Insight checks.
Optimal Negotiation
The key to any skill challenge is to inform the players. Continuing with The Negotiation example, any group containing several of the characters with the utility powers described and a magic item should have a significantly better chance to succeed. The original quote was concerned with a 50% failure rate yet never bothered with reading into the design of 4e as described in PHB, DMG, Races and Classes or Worlds and Monsters, which explicited stated that Items and Powers are part of every facet in 4e design. Adding a single magic item and using a simple Utility Power can reduce failure by 35% per individual, while creating an even lower risk of failure using Aid Other and Powers allowing rerolls. Skill Challenges are intended to drain PC's of their resources (Utility Powers) in order to succeed. This is no accident.
In The Negotiation if a party included Bob Marley the Paladin with One Heart, One Mind Utility Power (stupid name, useful power) they could work together telepathically and succeed in convincing the Baron to aid them – no surprises there. Skilled characters would be aided to have anywhere from a +4 to a +16 bonus to skilled checks – failing only on a one. Considering that many parties will include at least a Rogue, Ranger or Warlock they will have several utilities at their disposal to aid them in The Negotiation. A Warlock with Beguiling Tongue would be invaluable to any Diplomatic Skill Challenge, gaining an additional +5 power bonus to every skill check possible. Trained skill checks made by a Beguiling Warlock could have a 75% or greater success rate not including Item bonuses. Any party that includes a half-elf improves the entire party’s Diplomacy skill (racial power) while adding another skilled negotiator in their own right.
Failures in a Skill Challenge
Based on several accounts read on these and other forums I’ve noticed many reasons for Skill Challenge failure rested in the gamers themselves. There is a nasty habit of DM’s to immediately say NO whenever an opportunity presents itself. In 4e this is wrong. That might have been fine in previous editions but it’s time to learn from past mistakes and move on. The entire core of 4e is built on saying yes. The Skill Challenge system allows for creativity which can only exist if the DM follows the rules and says yes, however reluctant (DMG pg 28 and 73).
A Simple Game
One game I played in involved a Skill Challenge where we were being chased by city guards - Urban Chase. Playing a Dragonborn Paladin, I used the Intimidate skill saying, “I’ll scare the onlookers outside of this alley so they won’t tell the city guard which way we went. If you tell the guards anything I’ll kill you! just to rattle them and give us time.” Sure it wasn’t a listed skill for the challenge (making it a Hard DC) but as a Dragonborn Paladin trained in Intimidate the odds weren’t completely against me. Using Intimidate allowed me to try a different skill with a better chance of success then if I had tried Athletics (Full Plate and Heavy Shield is a -4!) and I received a +2 bonus for creativity because that’s just the sort of thing that happens in a police chase. The Warlord continued with the Cops schtick by bashing a door down allowing us to take a short cut through some stranger’s house (making a Str Check to aid rather than the Skill Check). The DM then gave the Rogue a +4 bonus on Streetwise to help us lose the guards (+2 for aid and +2 for having a good idea). The challenges taught me to be dynamic, open to change and reasonable.
Success in Skill Challenges
1) Inform the Players – Our DM was very clear on what skills would be most useful. He encouraged us to review our characters and think of other skills that would be equally as useful. The worst thing a DM can do is half-ass. Giving players inadequate information will certainly lead to failure, confusion and frustration. If the players don’t know what the Challenge entails they’ll choose the wrong skills, waste their Utility Powers or won’t phrase their ideas for secondary skills properly and accrue penalties.
2) Be Open Minded – DM's cannot be too adversarial because they're holding all the cards. It's important to keep in mind that some characters will be completely useless in a certain Skill Challenge. By allowing them to use their best Skills you can give them an opportunity to do something other than grant a +2 aid bonus. Also, a Hard DC isn’t that hard to a character specialized in a particular skill. You could be preventing a character from using a trained skill with a +2 racial bonus, +2 item bonus (or more), +3 feat bonus and a +5 power bonus (or more). Yes, that’s at least +17 before stat modifiers and levels are included! By saying no a clever PC just missed their opportunity to shine (and the party probably just racked up another failure).
3) Reward Clever Ideas – Just because it’s a Skill Challenge doesn’t mean that only skills are allowed. Characters should also be able to make ability checks if the situation calls for it. When our Warlord broke down the door we all cheered. We had 4 failures (three in a row) and only 7 successes. That put us back on track and made it possible for us to escape. By presenting reasonable ways in which a skill could be useful we received a +2 bonus. This doesn’t mean rewarding a player who says, “I use knowledge Nature.” This is where players must also pull their weight. Ideas must be compelling otherwise you’ll end up with a penalty for being lame.
