D&D 5E Skill Challenges in 5E

You found that skill challenges encouraged one player to take over the scene and made it easier for the DM to railroad the result compared with either using simple skill checks or handling it by DM fiat?

Actually, I did. I would not have posted this unless challenged, but here it is:

The most rational approach to a skill challenge was to have the player with the most relevant skill make all rolls. All others should either be absent or (if allowed to) Aid Other. The X successes before Y failure model meant that there was no time pressure and that the risk of failure was a much greater danger than the possible contribution a low-skill character could provide.

Forcing a character to participate against the wishes (and rational analysis) of the player is a kind of railroading, as is the entire structure of the skill challenge - rather than saying "This is the problem, solve it", the rules encourage certain skills and tactics. Often in qute an abstract way, with no real connection to a map or otherwise giving a clear image of what was happening.

On top of this, it encouraged boring and repetitive use of skills and was a dice-fest requiring dozens of rolls. And because the players often got disgusted by the awkwardness of the process, it felt that the only way to actually get most skill challenges finished was by DM fiat - as in "this is enough!"

No, I didn't like the skill challenge mechanic as written. I first tired to write interesting skill challenges. I then tired to rewrite the rules to my liking (one success per round for several rounds, high DCs), but by then my players had had enough of it and we went back to freeform task resolution.

All of this based on the errata for the 4E PH1 and DMG1 - by the time the second books came out we had given up on 4E.

My final analysis of skill challenge is a lot like my final analysis of all of 4E - many good ideas, poorly implemented. For example, I love the 4E cosmology and incorporated it into my own games. I liked the idea of limiting the palette of powers a PC has and replacing old powers with better high-level versions. But at epic levels characters still ended up with over 50 options on actions - items, feats, various gifts all adding complexity. The designers knew the art of game design, but failed at crafting the actual rules.

And I have exactly the same worries about Next - what we have seen so far, all the ideas and goals they have stated sound good - Meals & Co know the art of game design, they know what they want to achieve. But will they be able to actually craft good rules to fulfill their own goals? Will their mathematical analysis hold, and will the rules be robust enough for long-term play? I hope they will, but I do worry. The example of 4E makes me take anything they say with a big grain of salt.
 
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[MENTION=2303]Starfox[/MENTION], your post all makes sense to me, but the way I see it the reason that you had trouble with skill challenges is because you and your group approached noncombat scenes as challenges to be won or lost, with character success being associated with player pleasure and character failure being associated with player punishment. I know what that's like because my group plays in the same way. I think most D&D groups play in this mode most of the time. I don't think skill challenges work well in this mode--freeform play with a "referee"-style DM is better. But I can see skill challenges being valuable if you approach them in more of a story-oriented style where there's not so much pressure on the players to "beat" the skill challenge because they know that the DM is going to try to make the failure results just as interesting and stimulating as the success results. I wouldn't mind it if 5e had a skill challenge analogue as long as the text is way more specific about how and when to use them and doesn't try to present them as part of the core game.
 

The most rational approach to a skill challenge was to have the player with the most relevant skill make all rolls.

<snip>

Forcing a character to participate against the wishes (and rational analysis) of the player is a kind of railroading
This is not the first time I have seen comments along these lines about skill challenges.

To me, the analogue to this sort of comment in relation to combat would be "The most rational approach to a combat is to have the player of the fighter, who has the best to hit and the best damage, make all rolls - and forcing another player to participate would be a kind of railroading". But in fact I've very rarely seen combat run in this sort of fashion in D&D (certain arena combats would be the exception) - generally the GM frames the combat such that all the PCs are implicated, and so all have to make rolls, or otherwise declare actions, even the unarmoured, staff-wielding mage who is all out of fireballs for the day. And I've never seen that labelled as railroading - it's just playing the game, and the GM doing his/her job of dragging the PCs into the action.

In a skill challenge, the dynamic needs to be the same. This means that "You see an [chest/mountain/whatever] that needs conquering - what do you do?" is no good. Because the obvious answer is "The thief unlocks/climbs/otherwise deals with it." Rather, if the GM wants the player of the fighter, or wizard, or whatever to get involved, s/he has to frame that PC into the challenge. For instance, "The duke turns to Derrik, the dwarf fighter, and asks "So, Lord Derrik, what's your opinion on the matter?" - and now Derrik's player either has to make a Diplomacy roll, or come up with some other cunning plan to get out of answering, or look like a fool, or whatever - or maybe another player spends an interrupt resource to make a Bluff roll instead and draw the duke's attention of Lord Derrik onto something else.

That's not railroading, that's just the GM putting the players under pressure by framing their PCs into challenges - which is a pretty mainstream way of running an RPG.

Seems to me that the problem with skill challenges is that the 4e DMG presented them as being like a combat system for noncombat scenes, when they're not analogous to the combat system at all. Completely different kinds of fun. Skill challenges are not a *game*; if you approach them as a game then the roleplaying will feel "tacked on" because it doesn't affect the underlying mechanics and doesn't affect your chance of winning or losing. Skill challenges provide a structure that encourages everyone to contribute to the narration of noncombat scenes and makes it difficult for the DM to railroad them.
I think that skill challenges are a game to the extent that you can win or lose in them; and you have resources to spend on them (eg skill buffs, action points, and the somewhat underdefined "advantages" introduced in Essentials as a mechanical device to help deal with the rather wild skill bonus disparities of 4e PCs). But I agree that the narration is key - you can't make a skill roll until you narrate your PC into it, and establish (either explicitly or, more often at my table, implicitly) a goal for that roll that fits within the etablished and unfolding fiction.

And I agree it makes it hard for the GM to railroad, because the GM can't bring things to a close until the challenge is ended, nor declare that things are still unresolved once the challenge is ended.

They should only be used with players who like to roleplay for its own sake or for the impact that their description has on the narrative. They should not be used with players who only like to describe their skill check in the fiction if they can squeeze some sort of tactical advantage out of it.
I agree with the second sentence: you need to describe your skill check beyond simply the eking out of tactical advantages, because without that noone knows what is going on. In your first sentence, I think I agree with the second clause more than the first, because the first sort of player I think might find the mechanical aspect of the skill challenge to be a distraction.

In my game on Sunday, the PCs entered Mal Arundak, a bastion established by the god Pelor on the Abyss to guard an artefact (the Crystal of Ebon Flame) that is too corrupting to be stored anywhere else (see The Plane Below for the full story). The bastion is guarded by angels, but they have spent so long on the Abyss with the Crystal that they have been corrupted. In the description of this place in the The Plane Below book, there is backstory, and then a description of how things will turn out if the PCs go there (eventually the corrupted angels, who don't recognise their own corruption, will become paranoid and turn on the PCs blah blah blah) but no account of how to actually resolve the interaction between corrupted angels and PCs. I resolved it a skill challenge. The PCs were very courteous to the angels (multiple successful Diplomacy checks) and eventually proposed a collective prayer to Pelor whereby they would all reaffirm their commitment to defending the bastion in Pelor's name. The invoker-wizard deva PC then used his Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes to recall a teleport sigil in Pelor's palace on the outer plane of Hestavar, used a Planar Portal to open a portal into the palace through which some of Pelor's radiance would shine, and then used a Religion check to bathe the corrupted angels in that radiance, with the aim of cleansing them. The Religion check was a success (between stat, training, feat, item and an Epic Destiny feature it's very hard for this PC to fail Religion checks) and so the angels were cleansed, and able (in retrospect) to realise the corruption that had befallen them.

For me this is illustrative of how skill challenges work - the players have to actually engage the fiction via their PCs in order to establish the ingame possiblity of realising their goals, and the outcome is determined by the mechancial resolution of the PCs' attempted actions rather then predetermined either by the players or the GM. It also shows that, in 4e at least (and I think here 4e resembles "free descriptor" RPGs like HeroWars/Quest, Marvel Heroic RP etc), the game depends upon the players and GM reaching a shared understanding of what is feasible that is not dictated by the mechanics, but is rather a precondition of deploying the mechanics. For instance, nothing in the 4e mechanics states that "the DC for using Religion to channel Pelor's radiance so as to cleanse corrupted angels is X". The idea of cleansing the angels in this way was the players'. Given that he's an epic-level deva invoker it seemed plausible to me, but I (as GM) made him use Memory of 1000 Lifetimes (an encounter power) in order to recollect a teleport sigil in Hestavar (and that means the ability is not available for use later in the encounter). If you don't have players who are happy to improvise in this sort of way, at the interface between fiction and mechanics, I don't think skill challenges will work so well, as you won't see so much dramatic or creative stuff taking place.
 

[MENTION=2303]I can see skill challenges being valuable if you approach them in more of a story-oriented style where there's not so much pressure on the players to "beat" the skill challenge because they know that the DM is going to try to make the failure results just as interesting and stimulating as the success results.
I see what you're saying, although my players are still pretty keen on winning, and I think 4e is less forceful in putting on this sort of "fail forward" pressure than (say) Burning Wheel (as came out, I think, on our Burning Wheel thread a little while ago).

Even more than the players, I think one key for successful skill challenges is the GM being relaxed about things unfolding differently from how s/he may have envisaged. So for instance in my example above, I as GM have to be prepared to let the PCs cleanse the angels once the players hit upon that plan (and assuming that their mechanical attempt at realising it succeeds), and be ready to make sure the game remains interesting and challenging even though the PCs no longer have corrupted paranoid angels to deal with.
 

I can accept the goals [MENTION=17640]Ibram[/MENTION]arian and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] set up for skill challenges are good goals, but it is not goals the rules promoted.

Failed challenge = no xp = fail

And unlike combat, where everything contributes (even if it is just to be there and soak damage), the rules for skill challenges made failed rolls a NEGATIVE contribution. Hence the "one PC rolls all" mentality. This was the very first thing I (and my players) noticed reading those rules.

And when it did not encourage one PC does all, it instead encouraged PCs acting along completely different tracks. The worst case of that was a short skill challenge; a group of NPCs were holed up in a room, behind a spiked door. There were two obvious tactics; talk, or pull down the door. One player tried the one, one tried the other... Chaos ensued.

One thing I DID like about skill challenges was how they could be used as a means to substitute combat scenes, keeping the xp reward. It was super easy to create a social/sneak skill challenge that substituted for a fight, with the same xp reward. And the worst thing that could happen in this case was that you got a fight anyway, which was not so bad.
 


My final analysis of skill challenge is a lot like my final analysis of all of 4E - many good ideas, poorly implemented.
Even as a big fan of 4E, I wholeheartedly agree with this - and similar is my opinion on skill challenges and whether they should be in D&D Next:

The concept is very good - giving non-combat challenges some framework and rules to measure how much XP they're worth is very, very helpful. Making them into a mini-game... perhaps not the best idea. I'm a fan of the exploration rules, though - if they manage to abstract them and give you a toolkit to "devise your own skill encounter", similar to exploration with associated XP for difficulty (and explaining how spells might interact), I'd be very happy.
 

This is not the first time I have seen comments along these lines about skill challenges.

To me, the analogue to this sort of comment in relation to combat would be "The most rational approach to a combat is to have the player of the fighter, who has the best to hit and the best damage, make all rolls - and forcing another player to participate would be a kind of railroading". But in fact I've very rarely seen combat run in this sort of fashion in D&D (certain arena combats would be the exception) - generally the GM frames the combat such that all the PCs are implicated, and so all have to make rolls, or otherwise declare actions, even the unarmoured, staff-wielding mage who is all out of fireballs for the day. And I've never seen that labelled as railroading - it's just playing the game, and the GM doing his/her job of dragging the PCs into the action.

There's a fundamental difference here. In combat, the unarmored, spell-less wizard is a very minor asset... but still an asset. The wizard may spend most of the fight dodging and shooting a crossbow, and do very little damage, but very little damage is better than no damage, and the wizard can also do things like stabilize dying PCs. If nothing else, s/he can soak up a whack or two that would otherwise have been aimed at the fighter. The wizard could be a liability if the fighter sacrifices effectiveness to protect him/her, but that's the fighter's choice, and in most cases the best way to protect the wizard is to take down the enemy ASAP. So the party's chances of victory are not lessened by the wizard's involvement.

In a skill challenge, however, a PC with poor skills is an actual liability. The party's chances of success are lessened by that character's involvement. In fact, you don't even have to have poor skills to be a liability--you just have to have less skill than the most skilled PC in the group! The logical thing to do is to have all less-skilled PCs absent themselves if possible. The equivalent in combat would be if the fighter alone were more likely to win than the fighter, cleric, wizard, and rogue together.
 
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[MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION] you took the words out of my mouth here. I think [MENTION=2303]Starfox[/MENTION] has some very good points on why the current incarnation of the skill challenge doesn't work without some creative DM-ing. I do like the idea of skill challenges, but in it's current form, I don't quite like them. Some skill challenges could have been made better by having a timer on them. For instance making it harder after x rounds and fail completely after y rounds. This doesn't fit all skill challenges though.
 


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