Skill checks and Aid Another

[KarinsDad]

Nope. I think KD's proposed rule is so silly that I find it amusing that it is even being discussed.

So, since you had about 8 posts on it, this must mean that you like to discuss silly things.

Either that, or this is yet again your backhanded and lame attempt to dismiss what you disagree with as silly, even though you keep posting about it. Funny how that works.

 

[Storm Raven]

Why even bother to have the roll if many characters auto-make it by level 5?

Because many do not? There are lots of non-melee oriented characters out there who are lousy at making melee attacks, and those are the characters most likely to use Aid Another in combat, since their attacks are most likely to be otherwise ineffective.

 

[Storm Raven]

So, since you had about 8 posts on it, this must mean that you like to discuss silly things.

That would be why I said it was amusing.

 

[KarinsDad]

I quoted two areas of text in my initial post. One is the one you cited (which, by the way, I said "even if the urchin could help the scholar, is it that big a deal", pointing out thast your entire objection to the idea of the urchin helping is an unrealistic one).

It being "no big deal" to you is irrelevant to the rules.

You made an inaccurate rules claim, I called you on it, now you are trying to weasel out of the fact that you were flat out wrong.

I also quoted the rule that "in some circumstances assistance would not be beneficial", making it a judgment call as to whether the urchin could help the scholar without the need to have silly convoluted and poorly designed house rules.

The point is, the rules allow for it whereas you stated and I quote:

"Wrong. You cannot grant a bonus to a task your character could not achive alone. The street urchin could not give a bonus to a DC 45 Knowledge check, because he could not achive that task alone, under any circumstances."

Note: the word "cannot"

Note: the phrase "under any circumstances"

The fact is that RAW DOES allow a street urchin to help out the Sage. There is no rule that states that you cannot grant a bonus to a task that your character could not achieve alone. There is only a rule like this for when the skill restricts who can achieve the result. Knowledge skills do not restrict. Search, Disable Device, and Survival can restrict as per page 66 in the PHB.

The fact that a given DM could use the "in some circumstances assistance would not be beneficial" rule to prevent the urchin from helping the Sage (as is his right) DOES NOT prevent another DM from doing this "under any circumstances".


You cannot say "well, I wouldn't do it that way" to back up your position that RAW does not allow for it.

RAW does allow for it. You are completely wrong on this. Course, I wouldn't ever expect you to admit to a mistake.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Nope. I think KD's proposed rule is so silly that I find it amusing that it is even being discussed.

Word.

 

[Storm Raven]

RAW does allow for it. You are completely wrong on this. Course, I wouldn't ever expect you to admit to a mistake.

Sure it does. BUt it is entirely irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, since the rules provide for the circumstance you think is bad. A DM can determine that assistance would not be beneficial, thus not allowing for Aid Another in the circumstances you think it inappropriate. Which entirely eviscerates your argument that the "better rule" should be adopted.

I also note further problems with your "better rule". Using your rule variant, Aid Another is almost always useless in circumstances where the lead character would Take 10 (for example, Bob could not help Adam under any circumstances if Adam was going to Take 10 on his Search check). Aid Another would also be useless in any circumstance where the lead character would Take 20. So, under your "better rule", Aid Another is only useful:

1. When characters are making a check and cannot make the check separately; and
2. It is not a circumstance in which a lead character would otherwise Take 10 or Take 20.

So, for example, Aid Another is useless for any skill in which a pair of characters could make two checks independently: pretty much any skill other than certain applications of Disable Device.

And it is generally useless for any skill which you could otherwise Take 10 on (under the circumstances in which Take 10 would be usable): pretty much any skill other than Use Magic Device. And Usa Magic Device is a skill that probably would not be subject to Aid Another normally anyway.

So, basically, you've limited the usefulness of Aid Another to: combat, and Disable Device checks. In other words, your proposal is a terrible rule.

 

[KarinsDad]

I also note further problems with your "better rule". Using your rule variant, Aid Another is almost always useless in circumstances where the lead character would Take 10 (for example, Bob could not help Adam under any circumstances if Adam was going to Take 10 on his Search check). Aid Another would also be useless in any circumstance where the lead character would Take 20. So, under your "better rule", Aid Another is only useful:

1. When characters are making a check and cannot make the check separately; and
2. It is not a circumstance in which a lead character would otherwise Take 10 or Take 20.

While what you say is true for Take 20, but it is not true for Take 10.

The lead character with +10 skill does a Take 10 and gets 20.

The helping character with a +5 skill rolls an 18 and gets 23.

Total: 21.

But note the rule:

"You can’t take 10 on a skill check to aid another."

Hence, you would need to roll for Aid Another, regardless of whether you are using the core rule or the house rule.

And it is generally useless for any skill which you could otherwise Take 10 on (under the circumstances in which Take 10 would be usable): pretty much any skill other than Use Magic Device. And Usa Magic Device is a skill that probably would not be subject to Aid Another normally anyway.

So, basically, you've limited the usefulness of Aid Another to: combat, and Disable Device checks. In other words, your proposal is a terrible rule.

It can be used with the lead character doing Take 10.

What you really do not like about it is that it cannot boost the lead character by +2. It cannot be used to "auto-increase" the lead character's ability. That is what you do not like about it.


And, why again are you talking about this silly house rule, especially when not everything you say about it is accurate?

You sure seem to want to harp on about it.

 

[Storm Raven]

While what you say is true for Take 20, but it is not true for Take 10.

The lead character with +10 skill does a Take 10 and gets 20.

The helping character with a +5 skill rolls an 18 and gets 23.

Total: 21.

The second character is better off making his own seperate skill check in that circumstance, for any skill other than Disable Device. Any roll the second character makes that helps the lead character would be better as an independent check. If the lead character is going to Take 10, then the helping character is always better off just making a skill check on his own (for any skill other than Disable Device).

You still don't get it.

But note the rule:

"You can’t take 10 on a skill check to aid another."

Hence, you would need to roll for Aid Another, regardless of whether you are using the core rule or the house rule.

I didn't say you could. Perhaps you should actually read what you respond to.

It can be used with the lead character doing Take 10.

What you really do not like about it is that it cannot boost the lead character by +2. It cannot be used to "auto-increase" the lead character's ability. That is what you do not like about it.

No, what I don't like about it is that it make the Aid Another rule virtually useless for any skill other than Disable Device. If you weren't so busy trying to show what a great "rule-maker" you are, and actually looked at the effect of your silly variant, you'd have figured that out about six posts ago.

 

[KarinsDad]

No, what I don't like about it is that it make the Aid Another rule virtually useless for any skill other than Disable Device. If you weren't so busy trying to show what a great "rule-maker" you are, and actually looked at the effect of your silly variant, you'd have figured that out about six posts ago.

And you are STILL talking about it.

 

[Jacen]

It can be used with the lead character doing Take 10.

What you really do not like about it is that it cannot boost the lead character by +2. It cannot be used to "auto-increase" the lead character's ability. That is what you do not like about it.

I don't like that rule.
1) Lead character got some value (by takin 10 or rolling)
2) Aid other guy need to get better to help. If it is lower it doesn't help and if it is better it helps by HALF of aiding guys result exceeding the main character result.

So why to AID? Aiding person is loosing. It is a loose loose situation to help. If aiding rolled (he had to) better he would have got better result than lead character with the help.

By aidin you only loose some points. Thus better takes 10 and aiding person doesn't aid but rolls. This way if he gets better one it is his check that is better and taken into account.

I can think to aid in only if aiding is not countd as trying to do ir and in a situation where there are some serious negative impacts on failed results and lead character gets over that negative results by taking 10. So if failed aiding doesn't result in a negative result it can be rolled safely.