Storm Raven
First Post
KarinsDad said:And you are STILL talking about it.
Poking holes in your ego is amusing.
Skill checks and Aid Another
Poking holes in your ego is amusing.
Storm Raven said:
Actually, what you are doing is expressing an opinion as if that opinion is the only possible one. If anyone has an ego, it is you.
With regard to the house rule, it does things which core Aid Another does not:
1) It allows two or more similar level skill characters to cooperate and possibly significantly improve a very bad roll by the lead character,.
2) It prevents a low skill character from assisting a high skill character virtually every single time, regardless of the fact that the low skill character doesn't know what the heck he is doing.
3) It prevents any character from helping more than he is able.
You don't like that, fine.
But, it is just as viable of a rule as the core rule. It's just a different view of what is reasonable with regard to assistance.
You can argue until the cows come home and your POV on it will not ever be any better than anyone else's because this is not a mechanics issue. It is a common sense issue. The mechanics for the house rule work exactly as they should for what is attempting to be accomplished. That is something different than what the core mechanics for Aid Another are accomplishing.
Since you appear to not be able to understand that the goals here are different, of course, your rules analysis will show a difference not to your liking. Until you are able to comprehend that, you will not understand the difference and why the house rule works well for what it is attempting to achieve.
The house rule is not everyone's cup of tea. That's understandable. But, it is not a terrible rule either based on what it is attempting to achieve.
It is only a terrible rule if what you are attempting to achieve is identical to what the core rules Aid Another is doing: Anyone can help anyone almost all of the time and be successful. Once you get to +9, why bother to play the game?
Btw, another house rule similar to the core rule is that you change the DC of the Aid Another to 5 less than what the lead character rolled. If he rolls a 18, you have to roll 13 or higher to get the +2. It's easy to help him if he messes up, it's harder to help him if he does real well. That would take care of some of my issues with how the core rule works.
Another issue with Aid Another I am not impressed with.
In real life, when the assistant helps the master, he does most of the work which makes the master's life easier.
For example, the master paints the picture. The assistant gets coffee, cleans up the spilled paint, goes and gets more paint, cleans the brushes, etc.
This assistance is valuable, but it does not make the master paint a more beautiful picture.
It can decrease the time it takes for the master to paint the picture because the master does not have to clean up his own spilled paint, but it doesn't improve the final result.
Just another way in which the house rule more reasonably emulates how assistance really works. The reason Aid Another is written the way it is, is due to the fact that we are rolling a D20 with 20 equally possible outcomes. If we rolled 2D10 instead, the master would often roll more average looking rolls and we wouldn't need a rule to help out against high frequency really bad rolls.
In real life, when the assistant helps the master, he does most of the work which makes the master's life easier.
For example, the master paints the picture. The assistant gets coffee, cleans up the spilled paint, goes and gets more paint, cleans the brushes, etc.
This assistance is valuable, but it does not make the master paint a more beautiful picture.
It can decrease the time it takes for the master to paint the picture because the master does not have to clean up his own spilled paint, but it doesn't improve the final result.
Just another way in which the house rule more reasonably emulates how assistance really works. The reason Aid Another is written the way it is, is due to the fact that we are rolling a D20 with 20 equally possible outcomes. If we rolled 2D10 instead, the master would often roll more average looking rolls and we wouldn't need a rule to help out against high frequency really bad rolls.
Storm Raven
First Post
KarinsDad said:
No, I'm analyzing a terrible proposed rule variant, and exposing all of the inherent silliness that it leads to.
Except that in that case, they are almost always better off working independently. The only time they are better off working together is in the lone case of Disable Device checks. Basically, your rule allows people to avoid Aid Another as an option by making it a foolish choice.
Which eviscerates the need for the Aid Another rule. Also, low-skill characters aren't people who "don't know what they heck they are doing". That's your biggest error right there.
Which eliminates the need for helping at all for the most part. You should always choose to work independently, under any circumstance except a Disable Device roll.
No, I don't like that your variant essentially nullifies any usefulness of the Aid Another action.
No, it isn't. Your rule defines an action that will virtually never be used. You may as well make the Aid Another rule exclusive to combat and the Disable Device skill with your proposed rule, since that is the only time it would have any usefulness at all.
The house rule will not achieve its goals, because, with it in place Aid Another will never be used. That you have not figured this out yet is highly amusing, and almost amazing.
Because even a +2 to a skill does not guarantee success.
Storm Raven
First Post
KarinsDad said:
Oh, how silly you are. Making the master's life easier goes a long way to making him paint better. The master is not distracted. He can fully focus on the task at hand, making his painting better.
And of course, that's not all that an assistant does. I suggest watching The Agony and the Ecstasy for how a group of assistants can help a master make a piece of art, and make it better than the master could alone.
Storm Raven
First Post
LostSoul said:
Woo hoo! This thread was not pointless after all! Someone actually got something useful out of it. That actually makes it worth while.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Storm Raven said:
Enough. This has moved past the rules discussion and into the personal.
-Hyp.
(Moderator)
Peter Gibbons
First Post
How can you be sure? You'll never know what the master would have painted without the assistant's help.KarinsDad said:
Furthermore, the claim you're making about what happens in "real life" doesn't jibe with my experience. I use assistants (law clerks) in my work (attorney) all the time, and I don't mind telling you, it absolutely improves the final result. Less time wasted on the grunt work = more time to work on the difficult stuff = better work product. It's just that simple.
Twowolves
Explorer
Peter Gibbons said:
I think this is an ideal example of aid another as it pertains to craft/profession skills. Putting everything else aside, remember that the higher result you get on a Craft check the faster the final product will be finished, no matter what you are trying to make. Someone doing the grunt work for you frees up the master craftsman to put his efforts into the important work, allowing the work to proceed more quickly. Thus, the aid another very effectively emulates the master-apprentice relationship, even if the apprentice never gives more than +2 in bonuses.
