Skill checks for an ambush?

[Nytmare]

To drift out of one realm of make-believe combat and awkwardly wander into another, I play a ton of hiding-in-the-woods paintball, and our typical "we know they're coming this way and we've got time to set up an ambush" routine is to:

• Split everyone up and make them either a scout, or an ambusher, and designate a single person as a trigger
• Find a spot to spring the ambush that has the three following things:
  1. A spot to to hide for the people who are springing the ambush
  2. A spot that the people GETTING ambushed are going to use to take cover from spot 1
  3. A spot where the REAL ambushers are going to hide where they have free reign over the people hiding in spot 2
• The scout(s) take their time and completely hide everybody else
• The scout(s) try to spot the bad guys before they get within range, without bothering to hide themselves
• The scout(s) attempt to lead the bad guys into the ambush from the best direction possible
• At what is hopefully the best possible moment, the trigger springs the ambush, possibly bagging a bad guy or two, but primarily trying to manipulate the bad guys into position.
• Once the bad guys react to the trigger's attack, hopefully by digging into the bit of cover provided for them, the rest of the ambushers open fire and murdalize them.

What this leads to, at least when you're dealing with a bunch of people who are, for all intents and purposes, trained for it, is an exceedingly complex game of cat and mouse and mind games.

When you're scouting and you spot someone, you've got this balancing act between keeping an eye on them, not letting them know that you've spotted them, all while trying to surreptitiously herd them into an ambush.

If you spot a scout, you're going to assume that they see you and are trying to lead you into a trap, so you're going to make them dance around hoping that they give away the location of their teammates.

If you get ambushed, do you run for cover, or do you turn your back to the guy shooting at you, and assume that the real danger is behind you?

When you're setting your ambush, do you hide people in the spots that "make sense", or do you operate off the fact that you know that they know that you know what they know?

How does this translate into a normal game of D&D? Probably very poorly.

From the DM's side of things, the concept of a reactive ambush can be represented by luring the players into traps or within reach of lurkers. Troops that spring up a round or two after the fight starts, forcing the players to reevaluate where the front line is, or where it's safe for their controllers or strikers to hang out is always interesting.

But for the players? I think that a skill challenge mirroring the pre-ambush chess match would be really interesting, but it's not something you should use more than once every couple of levels. Unfortunately the most interesting parts of the ambush are kind of wasted due to the nature of the all-seeing DM eye. You can go through the motions of having the bad guys fall prey to a brilliantly laid ambush, but it gets old fast.

 

[DracoSuave]

Stealth and Perception, even when passive, are opposed rolls. The old 'take 20' rules would not have applied.

You roll Stealth, Give a bonus for preparation, and compare to passive perception.

Then give the players a surprise round for those who manage to beat the passive perception score. No fuss, no muss.

 

[Nytmare]

Stealth and Perception, even when passive, are opposed rolls. The old 'take 20' rules would not have applied.

You roll Stealth, Give a bonus for preparation, and compare to passive perception.

The hiding spot that you find "when you’re not in a rush, not being threatened or distracted (when you’re outside an encounter), and when you’re dealing with a mundane task" should be rolled? (page 179 PHB)

Also taking 20 is accidentally mentioned in the DMG on page 41 under "Searching the Room." "Unless the characters are under a time constraint, assume that they’re going to roll a 20 eventually..."

There should be a big difference between "someone's coming, I'm going to duck behind this log" and "someone will be walking down this road tomorrow, I'm going to make a camouflaged blind."

 

[Inigo Carmine]

I can't recall the details of 4th edition rules (away from books), but this is the way it worked in 3rd ed. Assumptions mentioned.

1) "Taking 20" doesn't really work with hiding. Taking 20 is not for receiving a mechanical benefit, it's for saving player time for a task they will accomplish, but might take multiple attempts. ie picking a lock: if the player's bonus +20 beats the DC, they *will* unlock it, taking 20 is just a shortcut to avoid making the player roll the dice a bunch of times.

I thought 4th edition was lacking anythign about taking 20, but I could be wrong.

2) Setting up an ambush was fairly easy in 3e too, just remember a few things.

In 3rd edition, if you had total cover, you could not be spotted, and if you weren't moving or talking you couldn't be heard (unless you tried like a DC 60 "heartbeat" sound or something). So you have all of the brutish un-stealthy guys completely hidden obviating any stealth checks, and one good stealthy guy hiding and spotting for the upcoming ambushees.

I can't remember if line of sight or movement is required to be able to "perceive" someone in 4e, so take this all as an idea instead of as law unless someone can confirm the particulars of the rules for me.

If I remember I'll consult the RAW tonight.

 

[LostSoul]

If the PCs want to ambush someone, they use the Aid another action.

If bad guys want to sneak up on the Ranger, they had better be a few levels higher than he is or use invisibility. (Even invisible he'll probably hear them approaching.) An encounter with a high-level lurker or two and some lower-level skirmishers might make for an exciting time.

Don't use a skill challenge; one side is completely passive (since they aren't even there yet).

 

[Nytmare]

"Taking 20" doesn't really work with hiding. Taking 20 is not for receiving a mechanical benefit, it's for saving player time for a task they will accomplish, but might take multiple attempts. ie picking a lock: if the player's bonus +20 beats the DC, they *will* unlock it, taking 20 is just a shortcut to avoid making the player roll the dice a bunch of times.

Taking 20 while trying to hide in an empty torchlit corridor perhaps, but taking 20 to find the best spot in a dungeon? Why the heck not? When you're playing hide and seek you''ll eventually find what you consider to be the best hiding spot, and once you're there, you just sit and wait.