Skill Feats In Pathfinder 2

Monday's Pathfinder 2 preview over at the Paizo blog talked about skills, so it only makes sense that the Friday preview would take a look at skill feats in the upcoming game.

"One that will stand out to risk-averse players is Assurance, which allows you to achieve a result of 10, 15, 20, or even 30, depending on your proficiency rank, without rolling. Are you taking a huge penalty or being forced to roll multiple times and use the lowest result? Doesn't matter—with Assurance, you always get the listed result. It's perfect for when you want to be able to automatically succeed at certain tasks, and the kinds of things you can achieve with an automatic 30 are pretty significant, worthy of legendary proficiency." This puts a new spin on critical results, as the Assurance feat lets you get the result that you might need for your character, even if it is a low roll.

Characters get a feat on every even-numbered level, so this is going to mean (at least) 10 feats for a character over the course of playing across 20 levels. "At their most basic level, skill feats allow you to customize how you use skills in the game, from combat tricks to social exploits, from risk-averse failure prevention to high-risk heroism. If you'd ever rather just have more trained skills than special techniques with the skills you already have, you can always take the Skill Training skill feat to do just that. Otherwise, you're in for a ride full of options, depending on your proficiency rank." We saw in the update about skills how the number of skills, and how your character advances in them. Skill feats are the road to further customization of your character's skills, and may be a missing piece of the advancement pie.

We know that skill mastery is going to be in "tiers" of expert, master and legendary, and the skill feats will give extra abilities with skills. For example, the cat fall feat: "Your catlike aerial acrobatics allow you to cushion your fall. Treat all falls as if you fell 10 fewer feet. If you're an expert in Acrobatics, treat falls as 25 feet shorter. If you're a master in Acrobatics, treat them as 50 feet shorter. If you're legendary in Acrobatics, you always land on your feet and don't take damage, regardless of the distance of the fall." At the cost of one feat, you receive a lot of new capabilities for your character's acrobatics skill. I suspect that more than a few Pathfinder 2 games are going to see a lot of high level rogues falling from very tall things.

Legendary characters, on either side of the screen, are going to be tough to beat in Pathfinder 2 games. "Legendary characters can do all sorts of impressive things with their skills, not just using scaling skill feats but also using inherently legendary skill feats. If you're legendary, you can swim like a fish, survive indefinitely in the void of space, steal a suit of full plate off a guard (see Legendary Thief below), constantly sneak everywhere at full speed while performing other tasks (Legendary Sneak, from Monday's blog), give a speech that stops a war in the middle of the battlefield, remove an affliction or permanent condition with a medical miracle (Legendary Medic, also from Monday's blog), speak to any creature with a language instantly through an instinctual pidgin language, completely change your appearance and costume in seconds, squeeze through a hole the size of your head at your full walking speed, decipher codes with only a skim, and more!" This is going to mean that there are going to be some pretty impressive high level characters in Pathfinder 2 games.

What do you think? Is the added flexibility that skill feats will give to character counter the changes to the skill system, or make them better?

 

[Tony Vargas]

As a former high level gamer of previous editions of TtRPGs (D&D 1E, 2E, 3E, 3.5, Gurps, and Pf 1E)

"One of these things is not like the others..."

Off topic, I know but what did you think of your one journey beyond the orbit of D&D?

 

[Caliburn101]

As a former high level gamer of previous editions of TtRPGs (D&D 1E, 2E, 3E, 3.5, Gurps, and Pf 1E) I can attest that high level characters (up to and past 20) could do some ridiculous things. For instance, I had a character who could rip open a portal to the astral plane at will and survive there, so things like legendary skills at level 20 doesn't seem too outside the realm of possibilities. So one of the arguments is about the legendary cat fall feat, being able to fall from any height and land on your feat. Think about the movie Avatar when Jake Sully was being taught to fall on those huge leaves. The first few times he never landed on his feat, but after time passed he learned how to hit each leaf properly and roll and eventually land on his feat. This is how I envisioned this feat. But let's be serious, how many rogues are going to be jumping off a flying mount 100 feet in the air to sneak attack an enemy? Now if you're jumping 20-40 feet, that's not outside of the realm of possibilities if you know how to tuck and roll. Also, this is a fantasy based game, so realistic physics isn't really something that exists. Calling it a legendary or magical feat (skill) isn't as important as the fun it can present. Plus this is part of the reason you have a playtest, to work all of these bugs out. Finally, it is always up to the decision of the GM to alter the rules as they see fit (unless you are playing Pathfinder Society where the rules are law) and they are always allowed to say, "you can fall from any height up to 50 feet and land without taking damage." Or just suggest it during the playtest.

"As the party walked into the tarrasque's lair the ranger commented, "what has this creature done that warrants it's death?" To which the rogue replied, "Death? Who said we were going to kill it, I just want that sword under it's left foot."

There are no giant springy leaves required here. At least in first edition the Monk at high level needed to be near enough to a surface to acrobatically use it to slow their descent. That was incredible, but at least gave a reasonable nod to the physics of friction...

 

[Jason Dolph]

Reasonably speaking, those arguing that this is zero investment have ignored that it is a multiple feat investment process to reach legendary skill ranks, and very well could be infusing heroes with mythical magical power. Characters from practically all mythologies who are non spellcasters have been capable of superhuman feats, and high fantasy storytelling has its roots in mythology. There could well be multiple explanations from divine gifting to intuitive interaction with magic to sheer feats of mortal will to illustrate how a hero could be legendary in a skill. Just because the old skill system was boring and 'free' progression doesn't mean this one is or should be. It has been openly said that getting a skill to legendary rank requires heavy feat investment, and the rewards are now Also stronger if you do. Given that martial classes have always had better feat access than casters and skill focus hsd few practical uses outside of intrigue games, this is a welcome change for me. Even the most bland realistic fantasy frequently features insane survival of certain death scenarios. These feats allow characters a piece of that without forcing them to be a caster.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Isn't high level basically super heroes?

When fighting a T-Rex becomes trivial, you're not just some average dude anymore.

Well, I can somehow imagine a human being able to dodge every blow of a T-Rex, and finally landing a sword hit through an eye to fell him.
But a thief taking away the worn armor of a healthy and awake human being without him noticing? I don't see how it could happen.

And while spellcasters do get to cheat a lot, I don't think there were ever any spells that could actually pull this off. I mean you probably could cast something like "Metal to Mud" spell or something to remove the armor, but the target would know, and you'd need to cast a seperate spell to make him forget. Maybe a Wish could do it, but that is kinda catch-all and not something you could pull off as reliable as a skill check (and probably not even unnoticed, because you still cast the spell first.)

 

[Tony Vargas]

But a thief taking away the worn armor of a healthy and awake human being without him noticing? I don't see how it could happen.

If you could see how it could happen, it wouldn't work! It's like a magician's trick, that way.

...oh, and he'd notice it was gone, wouldn't he? ...just not who took it ...and, like you, would be wondering /how/...

 

[Celebrim]

Well, I can somehow imagine a human being able to dodge every blow of a T-Rex, and finally landing a sword hit through an eye to fell him.
But a thief taking away the worn armor of a healthy and awake human being without him noticing? I don't see how it could happen.

It can't happen in this universe. It can happen in an universe coterminal with the ethereal plane, provided you assume that there is some degree of subtlety of the hand whereupon the hand is moving in a direction that is neither up nor down, neither left nor right, and neither back nor forward but in the direction that is tangential to all of those. In that case, you can remove the shoes from someone's feet while they are standing in them, you just have to be extraordinarily clever with your hands.

And while spellcasters do get to cheat a lot, I don't think there were ever any spells that could actually pull this off. I mean you probably could cast something like "Metal to Mud" spell or something to remove the armor, but the target would know, and you'd need to cast a seperate spell to make him forget. Maybe a Wish could do it, but that is kinda catch-all and not something you could pull off as reliable as a skill check (and probably not even unnoticed, because you still cast the spell first.)

I'm not sure I understand this objection; is the substance of it that no class should be able to do anything that a spellcaster cannot do? And I protest: spellcasters do not cheat the universe; they bargain with it.

 

[pemerton]

At least in first edition the Monk at high level needed to be near enough to a surface to acrobatically use it to slow their descent. That was incredible, but at least gave a reasonable nod to the physics of friction...

From the AD&D PHB, p 31:

Although the chance of falling while climbing walls is the same as that of a thief of equal level, monks can escape taking damage as follows:

- At 4th level (Disciple), a monk can fall up to 20' if he or she is within 1' of a wall.

- At 6th level (Master), a monk can fall up to 30' if he or she is within 4' of a wall.

- At 13th level (Master of Winter), a monk can fall any distance if he or she is within 8' of a wall.​

What is a monk who is 8' from a wall doing (physically) that will generate friction to slow his/her fall?

 

[Tony Vargas]

- At 13th level (Master of Winter), a monk can fall any distance if he or she is within 8' of a wall.[/indent]

What is a monk who is 8' from a wall doing (physically) that will generate friction to slow his/her fall?

If he's not doing anything, why does he need the wall?

 

[pemerton]

If he's not doing anything, why does he need the wall?

I didn't say the monk is not doing anything. I asked what the monk is doing physically?

From an article on the monk in a 1981 Dragon article ("He's got a lot to kick about", vol 53):

The new special abilities and powers presume that the inner strength of monks flows from the mind - that it is a sort of psionic power. After all, no degree of skill or knowledge will let a human being fall an unlimited distance when within 8’ of a wall and take no damage when hitting bottom at terminal velocity.​

Oriental Adventures (pp 104-5) had two martial arts special maneouvres that allowed dealing an attack at a distance:

One Finger: This skill requires long and difficult practice. It is said that the student first learns to push a heavy bell with the touch of a single finger. He concentrates then on touching it lighter and lighter while making the bell swing even more. Finally, he reaches the point where he can make the bell move without actually touching it. His inner power extends from his finger and pushes the bell. At this point he has mastered One Finger.

Distance Death: This is the ultimate skill of this method and requires great practice an0 concentration. To learn it, the character must practice at a pool of water, driving his finger at it without touching it. As he does so, he concentrates on his own power, trying to extend it from his finger. When he can hear the echo of his thrust rebound from the water, he has mastered the maneuver.​

And then, from the PHB (p 32), we have this:

The last ability gained, and perhaps the most terrible power, is that fabled attack which enables the monk to set up vibrations in the body of the victim, and the monk can then control such vibrations so as to cause death to occur when the monk stops them. Known as the "quivering palm", the monk merely touches his victim to set up the deadly vibrations.​

In short: there's no reason to suppose that the monk who can fall an unlimited distance within 8' of a wall is interacting physically with the wall.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I didn't say the monk is not doing anything. I asked what the monk is doing physically?
...After all, no degree of skill or knowledge will let a human being fall an unlimited distance when within 8’ of a wall and take no damage when hitting bottom at terminal velocity.
In short: there's no reason to suppose that the monk who can fall an unlimited distance within 8' of a wall is interacting physically with the wall.

So, he's, like, extending his Chi into the wall, and creating Chi-Friction to slow his fall, but it's not physical.

Y'know, he could also just do the skydiver thing to move close enough to the wall to touch it, soon enough to slow himself down before reaching the bottom?