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Skill Feats In Pathfinder 2

Monday's Pathfinder 2 preview over at the Paizo blog talked about skills, so it only makes sense that the Friday preview would take a look at skill feats in the upcoming game.

Monday's Pathfinder 2 preview over at the Paizo blog talked about skills, so it only makes sense that the Friday preview would take a look at skill feats in the upcoming game.

Pathfinder2BetaLogo.png

"One that will stand out to risk-averse players is Assurance, which allows you to achieve a result of 10, 15, 20, or even 30, depending on your proficiency rank, without rolling. Are you taking a huge penalty or being forced to roll multiple times and use the lowest result? Doesn't matter—with Assurance, you always get the listed result. It's perfect for when you want to be able to automatically succeed at certain tasks, and the kinds of things you can achieve with an automatic 30 are pretty significant, worthy of legendary proficiency." This puts a new spin on critical results, as the Assurance feat lets you get the result that you might need for your character, even if it is a low roll.

Characters get a feat on every even-numbered level, so this is going to mean (at least) 10 feats for a character over the course of playing across 20 levels. "At their most basic level, skill feats allow you to customize how you use skills in the game, from combat tricks to social exploits, from risk-averse failure prevention to high-risk heroism. If you'd ever rather just have more trained skills than special techniques with the skills you already have, you can always take the Skill Training skill feat to do just that. Otherwise, you're in for a ride full of options, depending on your proficiency rank." We saw in the update about skills how the number of skills, and how your character advances in them. Skill feats are the road to further customization of your character's skills, and may be a missing piece of the advancement pie.

We know that skill mastery is going to be in "tiers" of expert, master and legendary, and the skill feats will give extra abilities with skills. For example, the cat fall feat: "Your catlike aerial acrobatics allow you to cushion your fall. Treat all falls as if you fell 10 fewer feet. If you're an expert in Acrobatics, treat falls as 25 feet shorter. If you're a master in Acrobatics, treat them as 50 feet shorter. If you're legendary in Acrobatics, you always land on your feet and don't take damage, regardless of the distance of the fall." At the cost of one feat, you receive a lot of new capabilities for your character's acrobatics skill. I suspect that more than a few Pathfinder 2 games are going to see a lot of high level rogues falling from very tall things.

Legendary characters, on either side of the screen, are going to be tough to beat in Pathfinder 2 games. "Legendary characters can do all sorts of impressive things with their skills, not just using scaling skill feats but also using inherently legendary skill feats. If you're legendary, you can swim like a fish, survive indefinitely in the void of space, steal a suit of full plate off a guard (see Legendary Thief below), constantly sneak everywhere at full speed while performing other tasks (Legendary Sneak, from Monday's blog), give a speech that stops a war in the middle of the battlefield, remove an affliction or permanent condition with a medical miracle (Legendary Medic, also from Monday's blog), speak to any creature with a language instantly through an instinctual pidgin language, completely change your appearance and costume in seconds, squeeze through a hole the size of your head at your full walking speed, decipher codes with only a skim, and more!" This is going to mean that there are going to be some pretty impressive high level characters in Pathfinder 2 games.

What do you think? Is the added flexibility that skill feats will give to character counter the changes to the skill system, or make them better?
 

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Kurviak

Explorer
Are you really going to use such an argument?

OK - fine.

I suspect you have missed the obvious - so let me point it out for you.

What is the relevance of the wall at all? It is relevant, or it wouldn't be mentioned now would it... perhaps you really think that the monk can peacefully look at it as he/she falls and take in the interesting details... or does it in fact have something to do with the fact their mastery of mid air acrobatics can get move them close enough to it to grab hold of it to slow their fall?

Clue - there is only one logical answer.

It only mentions the wall to be at a maximum distance, nos the way the monk interacts with it. I prefer to think that monks projects their Ki to the wall to slow the falling
 

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Caliburn101

Explorer
It only mentions the wall to be at a maximum distance, nos the way the monk interacts with it. I prefer to think that monks projects their Ki to the wall to slow the falling

If running a retro game, you may decide that's how it works of course, but you would not be using the rules as written.

Ki was not a game codified concept introduced until the Oriental Adventures supplement, well after the creation of the Monk character class and these fall distances and circumstances were the RAW.

It doesn't need to mention how the Monk interacts with it - the Monk doesn't use spells, this Monk doesn't use 'Ki', or psionics, or any other named mystical power source.

Ergo - they physically interact with the wall, and everyone I ever encountered back then roleplayed it that way, because it was entirely obvious. To conclude anything else would have been illogical as there was no alternative explanation, and so of course no-one did.

But back to the point, the infinite fall distance for any character taking the legendary feat, without magic, psionics, ki or any other explanation is as ridiculous and counterintuitive as I have pointed out. A Fighter in full plate doesn't have any Ki to 'reach out' to the air molecules to slow themselves down...
 

mellored

Legend
But back to the point, the infinite fall distance for any character taking the legendary feat, without magic, psionics, ki or any other explanation is as ridiculous and counterintuitive as I have pointed out. A Fighter in full plate doesn't have any Ki to 'reach out' to the air molecules to slow themselves down...
The legendary feat gives you legendary magic.

To conclude anything else would have been illogical as there is no alternative explanation...
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
The legendary feat gives you legendary magic.

To conclude anything else would have been illogical as there is no alternative explanation...

It does not say that - and a player using it in an antimagic field would be pretty pissed off if you let them die because of an unsupported assumption like that.

If it was actually magic/psi/ki as per the RAW, with the usual mystic resource-style limited availability I would not have a problem with it.

But it clearly isn't, and cannot be hand-waived away as being so for the sake of narrative convenience unless you house rule.

Any RAW needing to be house-ruled to make sense is a bad rule.

Hence my objection to it.
 

mellored

Legend
It does not say that - and a player using it in an antimagic field would be pretty pissed off if you let them die because of an unsupported assumption like that.
legendary magic is not affected by antinagic fields.
It's legendary magic. Not arcane, or divine.
You can't dispel a barbarian's rage.

But it clearly isn't, and cannot be hand-waived away as being so for the sake of narrative convenience unless you house rule.
but it clearly is a fantastic ability.

No where does it say or imply anything about being a mundane feat. Your adding that part all by yourself.
 

Celebrim

Legend
You can't dispel a barbarian's rage.

Or a giant's strength, or a dragon's ability to fly. So clearly there are things which are both fantastic (that is, belonging to fantasy) and not magic (that is belonging to a category of things where a person can will to bring into being things that wouldn't have otherwise happened, or belonging to a category of powers which provide some external or supernatural exception to the rules).

Which is as much to say that a thing can be truly fantastic and yet not also be magic. This is extremely common in comic books, where beings like Spiderman or Captain America have fantastic abilities and yet those abilities are expressedly not magic. Even abilities as fantastic as those of Superman are not deemed magical in the comic books, and indeed it is a trope of the story that Superman is so unmagical, that he is in fact very vulnerable to the powers of magic compared to his invulnerability to mundane powers.

What's interesting and important is that this is also especially true of myth and fantasy. Some one like Heracles is not magically strong in the sense that we usually mean by magic. He was born with it. It was inherently a part of his being. The same is true of Celtic or Vedic heroes. They have fantastic abilities to smite things without it necessarily being magic. A being might know magic - Odin quests for the knowledge of it - while being fantastic for reasons other than magic. Tarzan is able to do any number of unrealistic and fantastic things, with no appeal to magic whatsoever. Rather, Tarzan has legendary skills that give him the ability to do things that to ordinary people seem magical.
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
legendary magic is not affected by antinagic fields.
It's legendary magic. Not arcane, or divine.
You can't dispel a barbarian's rage.

but it clearly is a fantastic ability.

No where does it say or imply anything about being a mundane feat. Your adding that part all by yourself.

Rage isn't magic.

There isn't a 'legendary magic ignores antimagic' rule - you are involved in complete fabrication here.

It's a skill Feat for a mundane skill that nowhere says it's supernatural, magic, psi, ki or drawing upon any other power source but the muscle-power implicit in the use of the skill.

You simply cannot fill in the gaps between the lines with made up stuff and pass it off as a credible argument mellored.

And please, don't try to say it's not muscle-power simply because the rules don't say it. It shouldn't have to.


I had made it very clear that if the Legendary Feat mentioned the skill feat user drawing upon some external mystic power source, then it would be ok'ish.

It doesn't - so you either have to make up something for your game (super rubber men are immune of 120 mph collisions) or just forget narrative suspension of disbelief because you care more about your perception of the gamist balance of this feat and the story is secondary to the rules.

That's roll-play, and anyone trying to inject some verisimilitude into their descriptions of events is going to have to houserule the rationale behind this ridiculous feat in their gameworld.
 

mellored

Legend
Rage isn't magic.
It's certainly not mundane anger.

And please, don't try to say it's not muscle-power simply because the rules don't say it. It shouldn't have to.
Don't say it's muscle-powered simply because the rules don't say "magic".
It's a fantasy roleplaying game. Fantastic abilities are the default.

That's roll-play, and anyone trying to inject some verisimilitude into their descriptions of events is going to have to houserule the rationale behind this ridiculous feat in their gameworld.
I have no problem injecting verisimilitude into the description.

For instance, here's an example of a non-magical rogue-like hero who can fall any distance and not get hurt.
View attachment 98825
 

Markh3rd

Explorer
That uses glide-like cloak and grappling hooks to not die when he lands. If Batman can jump off a skyscraper and land on the ground without something used like gliding or grapplehooks, that's new to me.
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
It's certainly not mundane anger.

Don't say it's muscle-powered simply because the rules don't say "magic".
It's a fantasy roleplaying game. Fantastic abilities are the default.

I have no problem injecting verisimilitude into the description.

For instance, here's an example of a non-magical rogue-like hero who can fall any distance and not get hurt.
View attachment 98825

WITH WINGS!!! Where does the feat mention wings!!??

So, because Batman has wings, the fighter plummeting 120 mph into a stone surface from thousands of feet up doesn't take any damage?

THAT is what your argument amounts to?

Thanks for proving my point so eloquently - that the feat is counterintuitive and requires homebrewing in terms of explanation and narration.

It's nice to know you agree, even if you cannot work out that's what you are saying.

Also, saying that everything in a fantasy rpg is 'fantastical' is laughably wrong. So, the wizard walking down the road isn't using her legs, she's what, levitating along? The gnome eating soup with a spoon isn't using his hand to eye coordination to get it into his mouth, he has little invisible demons that do it for him? Likewise the fighter jumping off a 1000 ft cliff survives the 120 mph plummet because he suddenly has wings...

Do you understand how ridiculous your position on this issue is?

I guess not... anyway, if you don't get it now, no point in me flogging a dead horse. I've better things to do with my time - go ahead and randomly make stuff up to explain bad rules all you like, I am sure there will be some players somewhere who like playing in a game where anything can happen for no reason, and stuff just magically appears in their equipment lists or power descriptions to fit the situation, even when they aren't all tripping on LSD.
 

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