Skill Feats In Pathfinder 2

Monday's Pathfinder 2 preview over at the Paizo blog talked about skills, so it only makes sense that the Friday preview would take a look at skill feats in the upcoming game.

"One that will stand out to risk-averse players is Assurance, which allows you to achieve a result of 10, 15, 20, or even 30, depending on your proficiency rank, without rolling. Are you taking a huge penalty or being forced to roll multiple times and use the lowest result? Doesn't matter—with Assurance, you always get the listed result. It's perfect for when you want to be able to automatically succeed at certain tasks, and the kinds of things you can achieve with an automatic 30 are pretty significant, worthy of legendary proficiency." This puts a new spin on critical results, as the Assurance feat lets you get the result that you might need for your character, even if it is a low roll.

Characters get a feat on every even-numbered level, so this is going to mean (at least) 10 feats for a character over the course of playing across 20 levels. "At their most basic level, skill feats allow you to customize how you use skills in the game, from combat tricks to social exploits, from risk-averse failure prevention to high-risk heroism. If you'd ever rather just have more trained skills than special techniques with the skills you already have, you can always take the Skill Training skill feat to do just that. Otherwise, you're in for a ride full of options, depending on your proficiency rank." We saw in the update about skills how the number of skills, and how your character advances in them. Skill feats are the road to further customization of your character's skills, and may be a missing piece of the advancement pie.

We know that skill mastery is going to be in "tiers" of expert, master and legendary, and the skill feats will give extra abilities with skills. For example, the cat fall feat: "Your catlike aerial acrobatics allow you to cushion your fall. Treat all falls as if you fell 10 fewer feet. If you're an expert in Acrobatics, treat falls as 25 feet shorter. If you're a master in Acrobatics, treat them as 50 feet shorter. If you're legendary in Acrobatics, you always land on your feet and don't take damage, regardless of the distance of the fall." At the cost of one feat, you receive a lot of new capabilities for your character's acrobatics skill. I suspect that more than a few Pathfinder 2 games are going to see a lot of high level rogues falling from very tall things.

Legendary characters, on either side of the screen, are going to be tough to beat in Pathfinder 2 games. "Legendary characters can do all sorts of impressive things with their skills, not just using scaling skill feats but also using inherently legendary skill feats. If you're legendary, you can swim like a fish, survive indefinitely in the void of space, steal a suit of full plate off a guard (see Legendary Thief below), constantly sneak everywhere at full speed while performing other tasks (Legendary Sneak, from Monday's blog), give a speech that stops a war in the middle of the battlefield, remove an affliction or permanent condition with a medical miracle (Legendary Medic, also from Monday's blog), speak to any creature with a language instantly through an instinctual pidgin language, completely change your appearance and costume in seconds, squeeze through a hole the size of your head at your full walking speed, decipher codes with only a skim, and more!" This is going to mean that there are going to be some pretty impressive high level characters in Pathfinder 2 games.

What do you think? Is the added flexibility that skill feats will give to character counter the changes to the skill system, or make them better?

 

[MichaelSomething]

Why are people shocked to discover that high level is full of super powerful stuff??

If the toughest dude you know would convert into a level 4 NPC in Pathfinder, imagine how tough a level 15 PC can be?

 

[Lucas Yew]

I strongly support Paizo's decision; in fact, it's still not strong enough for an opportunity cost paid per high-level non-spellcaster.

 

[Caliburn101]

Ring of feather fall has been in every D&D game.
And no, falling faster than normal is not "mega-powergamy".

That's a different subject. If you don't like the word "legendary" and would rather have the word "magical", then fine.

"If you're magical in Acrobatics, you always land on your feet and don't take damage, regardless of the distance of the fall."

[[A]][[A]][[A]] MAGICAL IMPERSONATOR FEAT 15
Prerequisites magical in Deception, Quick Disguise

You set up a full disguise with which you can Impersonate someone with incredible speed.



But claiming any of those abilities are somehow a game-breaking, power gamer, or is genera breaking is just flat untrue.

I didn't say game-breaking. Nice try at a strawman.

I said effectively, and now state, 'counterintuitive to the point of farce'. Why don't quote me on that?

Any game which takes the time to explain where divine and arcane magic comes from, where elemental powers come from, where fiendish powers come from and where psionic and monk's ki powers come from and then hand waives an infinite fall distance & zero damage mundane skill is being both very lazy and very 'gamist'.

To be clear, as you seem to insist of misunderstanding me - there is nothing rules-of-the-game-breaking about not taking damage from a fall - there is something entirely against the plausibility of narration and maintenance of a suspension of disbelief in having a Fighter in his underpants plummet at 120 miles per hour into solid rock and not taking 1 HP's worth of damage.

I don't care about rules balance on this issue - I care about playing the kind of game I can narrate without being forced to make up utterly ridiculous descriptions to explain what just happened.

 

[Caliburn101]

Because you need something Legendary for Legendary characters to do.

As opposed to getting an extra +1 to your skill or some other lame bonus for reaching 20th level.

Then make it both legendary and within the realms of physical possibility.

Too hard for them maybe?

 

[ZickZak]

Oh no! Level 15 character can steal shoes of someone wearing them?!

I have never, in 16 years playing this game, reached level 15, because I am not interested in that tier of play. Done.

 

[mellored]

there is nothing rules-of-the-game-breaking about not taking damage from a fall

Then we agree.

mundane skill

IMO, "legendary" is not "mundane".

there is something entirely against the plausibility of narration and maintenance of a suspension of disbelief in having a Fighter in his underpants plummet at 120 miles per hour into solid rock and not taking 1 HP's worth of damage.

Unless they were magical underpants of feather fall. Then you'd be fine with it.

Which is why I suggested replacing the word "legendary" with "magical", or "ki", or "psionic", or the rogue spends a feat in order to eat magical underpants of feather fall and inherently gain it's magical powers.

Same effect, same mechanic, but with whatever in-game explanation that you find reasonable.

 

[Shasarak]

Then make it both legendary and within the realms of physical possibility.

If we want to make it within the realms of physical possibility then first we would have to remove all traces of magic, wizards, dragons, elves etc.

Too hard for them maybe?

I dont think that it would be too hard. I think that no one would want to play that game so why would they want to do that?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Then make it both legendary and within the realms of physical possibility.
Too hard for them maybe?

To hard for the 'reality' of the game, perhaps. In D&D/PF, magic is commonplace, dependable, repeatable, & largely fungible. You can get a potion or ring or underpants or whatever, or learn to cast a comparatively easy spell and, if you fall a great distance, float to the ground, unharmed. With any well-off acrophobe who invests 2.2kgp in a magic ring able to fall without harm, there's nothing 'Legendary' about being able to fall great distances without harm. It's a better than a parachute, in that it doesn't take up any space to speak of, and doesn't need to be re-packed after each use, and it's precious in that it cost you 44 lbs of gold, but it's not really any more fantastic than a parachute.

 

[Caliburn101]

A fair number of people here are trying to change what I have clearly stated to suit their own preference and arguments. Some are trying to ignore that I am talking about the realism of a mundane non-magical/non-ki etc. skill by saying 'but magic'.

It's a tired old set of forum tactics not worth anyone's time - so please stop it.

If a Fighter in his underpants can take zero damage from slamming into rock at 120 mph, then they also shouldn't take damage from trebuchet rocks hurled at them, or take damage from any kind of kinetic damage attack.

They are clearly invulnerable as far as you are all concerned. If you try to argue the entirely illogical point that the invulnerability only applies to falling, then explain how that works in the gameworld?

You cannot of course - not without crowbarring in ki, or magic or divine power etc.

Like mellored has now done, after the fact...

And THAT of course is the problem - that it is a mundane skill that has a 100% reliable, zero cost, infinitely repeatable supernatural outcome.

Suit yourselves - I'll take my clear understanding of physics and the fact that if magic isn't involved then those laws should apply to any game narrative and play any one of the many, many games elsewhere that accept those facts.

It's a real shame. I have enjoyed much of what Paizo have stated about the new system, and I find many of their ideas innovative. I will probably lift a fair few of them when I create my planned 5th Edition/PF2 hybrid.

But nowhere in the game I run with that hybrid, will invulnerable rubber people be throwing themselves off the walls of floating Cloud Giant Castles to get to the pub in time for closing...

 

[mellored]

If a Fighter in his underpants can take zero damage from slamming into rock at 120 mph, then they also shouldn't take damage from trebuchet rocks hurled at them, or take damage from any kind of kinetic damage attack.

Wouldn't the same argument apply to feather fall? That a boulder falling into your head would be the same as you falling head first into a boulder?

Thus if you apply physics... feather fall would make you immune to bludgeoning damage, and give resistance 5 to any other physical damage (as the attack is slowed, but still sharp).

And THAT of course is the problem - that it is a mundane skill that has a 100% reliable, zero cost, infinitely repeatable supernatural outcome.

I can see where you get the idea that it's mundane (though I disagree)

But it very much has a cost of a feat and your skill points. Which is more expensive than some gold for a 100% reliable, infinitely repeatable supernatural outcome ring of feather fall.
Or spending the feat on magical crafting and making your own ring, along with other stuff.
Or 1 level of wizard, and just not falling more than twice a day.