Skill modifiers: how good are you?

[Ogre Mage]

What is the measuring stick when looking at skill modifiers (ranks + ability modifier)? How "good" is a character at a skill if he has +4 to diplomacy or +8 to knowledge (arcana)? What is considered a beginner level of skill and what is an expert? Below are my approximations, I was wondering what other people thought:

Level of character skill modifiers--

+1: Trainee.
+2: Novice.
+5: Competent.
+10: Professional.
+15: Expert.
+20: Zen Master/Genius.
+30: God of [insert skill name here]

 

[Crothian]

Well, the upper levels really need to be extended much higher. The base game goes to 20 levels with rules to go much higher.

I'm only at 16th level with my group and some of them have skills at +29 and I don'y use items that increase skills or items that increase attrubutes. The character could easily have +13 more with a +10 skill boost item and a +6 attribute boost item.

 

[Andor]

Given that a skill level of 10 will allow a character to routinely make a masterwork item (IE: Take 10 to hit DC 20) I would say the chart would look like:

2 = Apprentice
5 = Journeyman
10 = Master
20= Wizard
20+ God

The fact that charcters hit these levels relatively quickly is irrelavent. PCs are exceptional (may not apply in FR.)

 

[LostSoul]

2 = Apprentice
5 = Journeyman
10 = Master
20= Wizard
20+ God

I think that works out for the most part... except you will have a lot of God-like Aristocrats running around:

5 ranks Diplomacy = +5 Diplomacy
5 ranks Sense Motive = +2 Diplomacy
5 ranks Bluff = +2 Diplomacy
5 ranks Knowledge: Nobility = +2 Diplomacy
One +2/+2 feat = +2 Diplomacy
Skill focus: Diplomacy = +3 Diplomacy
14 Charisma = +2 Diplomacy

That gives you +18 Diplomacy at 2nd level. Only works if you're human, though - otherwise you have to wait until 3rd level to get the 2nd feat.

This isn't a totally whacked-out build, either; I can easily see every Aristocrat of 2nd level having +11. (That's with 10 Cha and no feats spent on Diplomacy.)


Blah, enough of that hijack. Here's what I think:

+0 - average human ability
+2 - some training or natural aptitude
+4 - decent training (finishing apprenticeship) or great natural aptitue
+6 - professional level
+8 - highly skilled professional
+10 - master (among the best in a city)
+15 - among the best in a kingdom
+20 - among the best in a continent
+30 - among the best in the world
+50 - among the best in the multiverse.


Not everything fits, though - like Diplomacy. Sometimes I wish D&D was more free-form.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

<5 student
5 associate
7 bachelor
9 master
11 doctor
>15 silly
>17 fun begins

 

[Zappo]

Ok, I don't have time to actually do this now, but I think that a neat thing to do would be to pick up the DMG's population-by-level tables, make a few reasonable assumptions, and figure out how many people actually have a +5, +10, +30 modifier in any given skill. Obviously, the DMG's tables weren't wrote to this end, but the result may give us a good idea of exactly how special a +35 is.

 

[Afrodyte]

How about a separate gauge for skill ranks, particularly as a means of determining training in addition to what innate ability you have. Here's a rough idea of what I have in mind:

4 ranks and below: novice
5 to 10 ranks: competent
11 to 15 ranks: expert
16 to 20 ranks: master
21 to 25 ranks: legend
above 25 ranks: myth

Of course, in addition to those ranks, additional factors may make the actual modifier much higher. I would hope that there's a difference between someone with a Strength of 30 and someone with Strength 8 and 11 ranks in the Jump skill.

But pragmatically speaking, none of this may matter, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Li Shenron]

As I view the game, +4 is already a level enough to be considered "professional".

A very good professional has more, probably something like +8, high enough to make him a "master".

More than +10 is "heroic".

 

[J_D]

5 ranks Diplomacy = +5 Diplomacy
5 ranks Sense Motive = +2 Diplomacy
5 ranks Bluff = +2 Diplomacy
5 ranks Knowledge: Nobility = +2 Diplomacy
One +2/+2 feat = +2 Diplomacy
Skill focus: Diplomacy = +3 Diplomacy
14 Charisma = +2 Diplomacy

You can't be serious! I'm counting three stacked synergy bonuses in there! I don't think that the rules say one way or the other on this, but I'd never allow it. If a player tried that on me, I'd hysterically laugh in their face and tell them to get real! For any given roll, I'd allow one -- and only one -- synergy bonus for the most applicable skill. Synergy bonuses should not stack.

I judge ratings by skill ranks, not skill mods, and I think most people here are being a little too easy. Here's how I do it:

0-4 ranks = Apprentice
5-14 ranks = Journeyman
15+ ranks = Master

 

[Crothian]

RAW, Synergy bonuses stack.