Skill Points

[Shalimar]

Those all sort of seem like rationalizations of why it is ok the way it is, instead of actual reasons that it should be this way. I don't know if that came out right. What I am trying to get at is that there are other D20 games where skill points are a lot more plentiful (4 being minimum), and Int Bonus still add in, and they seem to run fine too, so there is nothing game breaking in having more skill points, and it tends to allow for a much more fleshed out and diverse group when everyone has the skill points to sink a few points into the things that I always feel guilty about putting them into in DnD, ie knowledge(except arcane), profession, etc, things that flesh the character out, but are nowhere near as useful as Diplomacy, Heal, etc. For me its like, there are certain skills that are the typical 'xxx' skills for whatever class, that characters need to perform their job, and only by taking away from those can I get the skills that flesh out the characters, making me feel guilty because I am short changing my role in the party because I have so few skill points to spread around.

 

[Klaus]

The classic ranger skills would be (IMHO, of course): Spot, Listen, Move Silently, Hide, Survival, Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature) and Climb/Jump (rolled together because you can have half-max ranks in each and do well).

I expect the ranger to be the sharp-eyed lookout (Spot/Listen), stealthy (MS/Hide), able to control and train his animal companion (Handle Animal, possibly also Ride), knowledgeable in the ways of nature (Survival and Know: nature) and athletic enough to navigate natural environs (Climb/Jump). With the new "know creature powers/weaknesses" use of Knowledge, both K (nature) and K (dungeoneering) are a must, and maxed out to boot, because the ranger is supposed to be a competent hunter who knows his prey.

 

[Ranger REG]

Those all sort of seem like rationalizations of why it is ok the way it is, instead of actual reasons that it should be this way. I don't know if that came out right. What I am trying to get at is that there are other D20 games where skill points are a lot more plentiful (4 being minimum), and Int Bonus still add in, and they seem to run fine too,

Are we talking about D&D or d20 in general?

 

[Shalimar]

The question was getting at why DnD doesn't make skill points as plentiful as other D20 system games. Using D20 system games to illustrate points would be pretty much a given. Wheel of Time and Star Wars for instance.

 

[Sejs]

In my current game I'm handling things differently from book-standard as regards skills in two ways:

1) All 2+Int mod classes are bumped up to 4+Int mod. Everything 4+ and above stays the same. Oh, except Commoners. They've still god 2+.

2) There are a group of skills that are class skills for everyone, period. They are: Craft, Handle Animal, Knowledge (Local), Profession, Ride, and Swim. They're refered to as Everyman Skills, and basically they're just the pool of abilities that people in a pseudo-medieval setting use to get by day to day.

I also relegate the Common language to sort of back-seat status. All PCs start off knowing it, but not all NPCs do. Most NPCs speak their regional language, with Common sort of serving as a trade tongue. If you go to Sembia, the man on the street is speaking Chondathan, not Common. Get an innkeeper or a merchant and they'll probably know Common, but Joe Farmersmarket doesn't.

 

[Victim]

The game we're in now, the GM gave every class a flat 2sp raise across the bar (including +2 x 4 for 1st level).

They also bumped up the Wizard an additional 2sp to 6sp a level, as a "learned scholar" type character.

So far, I haven't found that even the Wizard bump is overbalancing. It HAS allowed the wizard to take full possible ranks in Use Magic Device as a cross-class skill, which in turn made Magical Aptitude an attractive feat. So far it's meant that the wizard used exactly ONE scroll of Cure Light Wounds, and will eventually be able to use wands reasonably regularly (this level, I think, she needs to roll a 12). Maybe when the Wizard is constantly buffed like a cleric in a few levels we'll see.

--fje

With a wizard's high INT, I haven't had much trouble giving them a range of knowledge skills plus some other stuff. A Wizard with 16 INT could pick up his core 3, UMD, and then split the last skill block into a few a knowledge skills. A human or smarter wizard could do more. And since wizards are going to increase their INT, they should be able to eventually pick up a few more skills.

Not all skills have to be at maximum ranks.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Here's how it goes, basically.

Skills are what makes your character useful outside of a fight (well, spells too, but mostly skills).

To that end, giving characters only 2 per level (or worse, 1 with an int penalty, common for a paladin or cleric who can't really afford to sacrifice anything else) can cripple a players enjoyment outside of fighting.

That counts double for the fighter, who not only gets barely any skill points, but ALSO gets a crap skill list with no variety (physical skills and nothing else - and frankly the physical skills are almost a waste of time). Clerics and paladins have more of a range (some social, some physical, some mental). Sorcerors are pretty badly off (ie - nothing but mental).

I don't think that bumping every 2 sp/level class except those that are int-based to 4 sp/level would do harm. For the fighter however, I think we also need to expand his skill list.

Adding spot and listen I think would be a very good idea - as is, most of the guards in an average kingdom are about as perceptive as a blind mole rat with cheese in his ears.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Here's how it goes, basically.

Skills are what makes your character useful outside of a fight (well, spells too, but mostly skills).

To that end, giving characters only 2 per level (or worse, 1 with an int penalty, common for a paladin or cleric who can't really afford to sacrifice anything else) can cripple a players enjoyment outside of fighting.

That counts double for the fighter, who not only gets barely any skill points, but ALSO gets a crap skill list with no variety (physical skills and nothing else - and frankly the physical skills are almost a waste of time). Clerics and paladins have more of a range (some social, some physical, some mental). Sorcerors are pretty badly off (ie - nothing but mental).

I don't think that bumping every 2 sp/level class except those that are int-based to 4 sp/level would do harm. For the fighter however, I think we also need to expand his skill list.

Adding spot and listen I think would be a very good idea - as is, most of the guards in an average kingdom are about as perceptive as a blind mole rat with cheese in his ears.

A friend of mine suggested opening up the skill lists ot the point that, at character creation, you would choose the class skills for your class. Each class would get a varying number (I think we thought a range of 6-14 was about right fighter on the low end rogue on the high) with only a few skills restricted to certain classes (like Use Magic Device) but the cross class skills rules still in place. Never did give it a try though...