D&D 5E Skills and Ability Checks -- Perspective on Consistency vs DM Empowerment

[Garthanos]

Gandalf had the most powerful armor of all. Plot armor. Boromir on the other hand had armor made of aluminum foil.

He had character archetype matches Aragon flavored plot weakness

 

[Tony Vargas]

Boromir on the other hand had armor made of aluminum foil.

In old-school D&D terms, Boromir's temptation by the Ring could've been some "oops, you touched the Evil Artifact, take 10-100 damage" kinda thing, leading to his death by a few lousy d6 arrows while fighting orcs.

(One thing I noticed in the movie was that Boromir carried a shield around the whole time to no particular purpose, until he could've really used it...)

 

[Garthanos]

Then Boromirs players backup Character Faramir took stage.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Then Boromirs players backup Character Faramir took stage.

The names even sound right for that.

 

[Oofta]

In old-school D&D terms, Boromir's temptation by the Ring could've been some "oops, you touched the Evil Artifact, take 10-100 damage" kinda thing, leading to his death by a few lousy d6 arrows while fighting orcs.

(One thing I noticed in the movie was that Boromir carried a shield around the whole time to no particular purpose, until he could've really used it...)

That is interesting - but I also noted that his chain mail did absolutely nothing. That's pretty common in film though, armor may as well be made of tin and the only thing that matters is plot armor.

 

[Garthanos]

The names even sound right for that.

The Bill and Phil brothers

 

[Tony Vargas]

That is interesting - but I also noted that his chain mail did absolutely nothing. That's pretty common in film though, armor may as well be made of tin and the only thing that matters is plot armor.

The orcs just hit. So the arrows did full damage. That's also exactly how D&D armor works!

Heh, no wonder the Tolkien estate sued.

 

[Ashrym]

Basically 4e gave me something approximate to that parity in and out of combat and yes there were spells that broke with physics and like teleport.... but the 4e teleport didn't give an instant easy escape that undermines chase scenes and homeward journeys both

That 7th level slot usually went to something a lot more useful like force cage or reverse gravity, lol. Teleport gets brought up a lot but it's a mediocre spell.

The party usually needs to move within range for the escape idea and that gets interrupted by enemy turns.

The chase scene might get cut short but the idea of a chase scene is giving the opportunity to escape. I can escape pretty easily without teleport on many characters at much lower levels and it's one of those things where the Villain taking a hostage to force the heroes to come out becomes a typical hero moment.

It's not hard for villains at that level to track the party and teleport after them too.

Going home after the main event is a minor detail. That's why the eagles flew Sam and Frodo home. It's basically wasting a 7th level slot for travel my montage instead of just travelling by montage. It looks cool and all, but it's rather meaningless.

 

[Garthanos]

The party usually needs to move within range for the escape idea and that gets interrupted by enemy turns.

OK the first part I now get you are saying its not totally trivial because there is a range limit. Its still pretty darn trivial or at least simplistic.

The chase scene might get cut short but the idea of a chase scene is giving the opportunity to escape. I can escape pretty easily without teleport on many characters at much lower levels and it's one of those things where the Villain taking a hostage to force the heroes to come out becomes a typical hero moment.

So you are claiming other abilities trivialize them sooner? Show me don't just claim it. And if so is it just another magic can do anything moment. And is too powerful again.

It's not hard for villains at that level to track the party and teleport after them too.

Ok you are saying that teleport is not a perfect escape even so because when the players have it the nature of the chase is now something completely different. (with teleport blips in the middle and swimming through an astral tide to hide your path or some such high level goo)

Going home after the main event is a minor detail.

Sure but going home in a rush to get the thing needed to cure the affliction your character got that will kill him in short order might be something more complicated especially if the ritual needed requires components you do not at this moment have enough of (its the same dynamic really as the I didnt put it in a spell slot and I need it in less than the time to swap out spells or some such I suppose)

 

[Ashrym]

OK the first part I now get you are saying its not totally trivial because there is a range limit. Its still pretty darn trivial or at least simplistic.

Yes, it's not "totally trivial" because the opponents often continue to have a turn or more while the party closes to range for the teleport.

An opponent that a 13th+ level party would need to flee from while they have the need to flee has that party closing in tight formation for him before they flee. They are fleeing because they are either facing something beyond a 13th level party (and force cage as an alternative to teleport) or they are at risk because they are low on hit points and resources (which means the 7th level slot for teleport is likely already used).

Have a look in the MM or even just the SRD 13 CR monsters for an idea of what the party is actually facing. Easily running away from weaker monsters is hardly impressive. The monsters the party might be running from can devastate a party already needing to flee in that short amount of time.

So you are claiming other abilities trivialize them sooner? Show me don't just claim it. And if so is it just another magic can do anything moment. And is too powerful again.

Do you see the irony of your earlier bard comment and my request to see the build?

My claim is teleport is a mediocre spell. Keep that clear claim in mind.

Why did you assume it take magic to stop magic? What do you think happens when the wizards shouts to the party "gather near me! we're getting out of here!"?

That archer battle master action surges and drops the wizard. The dragon breathes fire and drops the wizard. The beholder simply stops the wizard. A 5th level monk runs up and stuns the 13th level wizard. Numerous poisons are save for unconscious or save for blindness. Any effect that stops seeing stops the teleportation because seeing the individuals to be teleported is stipulated in the description. That can be something as simple as shooting the light source out of the wizard's possession (battle master trick shot, slight of hand and a toss) to force the wizard to take another turn adding the light source back.

There is a pretty long list of things to deny the wizard actions that are not magical.

Ok you are saying that teleport is not a perfect escape even so because when the players have it the nature of the chase is now something completely different. (with teleport blips in the middle and swimming through an astral tide to hide your path or some such high level goo)

It's a high level spell. That comes with high level opponents. High DEX and stealth expertise gives the ability to escape chases. A high level teleportation chase between two capable beings is just a different take on the same concept.

There is a problem in the based premise, however. By the time the party is in a position where they think they need to flee they have already used those high level resources and teleport is no longer an option.

Sure but going home in a rush to get the thing needed to cure the affliction your character got that will kill him in short order might be something more complicated especially if the ritual needed requires components you do not at this moment have enough of (its the same dynamic really as the I didnt put it in a spell slot and I need it in less than the time to swap out spells or some such I suppose)

That's a forced scenario. It's more likely that someone uses greater restoration at that point and if that cannot work because of fiat, or isn't available for some reason, then herbalism and medicine actually do exist for those rare afflictions.

I can count the times teleport mattered in 5e in our games with no hands. It's never been important and it's actually only been cast outside of combat to either go home or go somewhere that might have a known teleportation circle because of the miss chances.

If you have the time, it's better to just use plane shift, rest, and use plane shift again because that avoids the miss chance.