Skills as Feats

[Michael Morris]

My players and I decided to do a reset on the game so I've typed up some new house rules to simplify play. The major part of this removing the tracking of skill points in favor of making skills into feats. Here's a copy of the handout I prepared them.

[bq]My comments are in blockquotes[/bq]

Skill Feats
Each of these can be taken twice – first to become trained and again to master the skill. Some Skills now have Prerequisites!

Strength Skills: Climb, Jump, Swim
Dexterity Skills: Balance, Escape Artist, Stealth*, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Use Rope
Constitution Skills: Concentration
Intelligence Skills: Appraise, Craft Weapon, Craft Armor, Craft Item, Decipher Script, Disable Device*, Forgery, Lore, Spellcraft
Wisdom Skills: Heal, Perception*, Sense Motive, Survival
Charisma Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, Use Magic Device

New and Changed Skills
Stealth – Merges Hide and Move Silently
Disable Device – Now includes Open Locks
Perception – Merges Listen, Spot and Search

Ability Feats
At each odd ability score starting at 13 a character gains an ability feat related to that ability score. You can use these feat slots on the skill feats above or on any of the below.

Strength:
Dexterity: Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Tumble
Constitution: Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Run, Toughness, Improved Hit Die*
Intelligence: Speak Language (Racial Bonus Language list only)
Wisdom: Iron Will
Charisma:

[bq]I could use some ideas on strength ability score feats[/bq]

Banned Feats
The following feats are removed. (Basically any feat that grants skill bonuses)

Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Animal Affinity, Athletic, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Diligent, Investigator, Magical Aptitude, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, Persuasive, Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus, Stealthy

Changed and New Feats
The following are revised or new feats not listed in the Dusk book or PHB.

Mobility – You may approach foes without provoking an attack of opportunity. You may withdraw as a move-equivalent action instead of a standard action.

[bq]People almost always forget to apply the bonus from this feat. This method removes the addition / subtraction aspect[/bq]

Spring Attack – You may move before and after a single attack.
Tumble – Prerequisites: Balance Mastery. Benefit: Your movement doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.

[bq]After 6 ranks or so tumble is almost always guaranteed with a high dex, so why not just forgo the roll and say this[/bq]

Improved Spring Attack -- Prerequistes: Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack. Benefit: You may make a full attack as a standard action. You may move before, between and after these attacks.
Speak Language: Each language is a feat
Reading / Writing: This is now a feat and prerequisite to Decipher Script and certain uses of the Forgery skill.

Class Changes
Barbarian: A barbarian begins with 4 skill feats which must be spent training or mastering barbarian skills. A barbarian gains a bonus skill feat every 5th level.
Fighter: The fighter begins with 2 skill feats which must be spent training or mastering fighter skills.
Monk: A monk begins with 4 skill feats which must be spent training or mastering monk skills. A monk gains a bonus skill feat every 5th level.
Priest: A priest begins with 4 skill feats which must be spent training or mastering priest skills. A priest gains a bonus skill feat every 5th level.

[bq]This class exists instead of the cleric due to my variant magic system. The druid is a prestige class for the same reason[/bq]

Rogue: A rogue begins with 8 skill feats which must be spent training or mastering rogue skills. A rogue gains a bonus skill feat every even level.
Sorcerer: A sorcerer begins with 2 skill feats which must be spent training or mastering sorcerer skills. The sorcerer begins play with the Eschew Materials feat for free.
Wizard: A wizard begins with Spellcraft mastery. In addition a wizard gains 2 skill feats which must be spent training or mastering wizard skills.


Prestige Classes
The prerequisites of certain prestige classes are changed:
Bard: Base Attack +3, Lore Mastery, Perform Mastery, Ability to cast 1st level blue spell, Red alignment.
Druid: Base Attack Bonus +3, Ability to cast 3rd level green spells, Green Alignment, Survival Mastery, Handle Animal Mastery
Paladin: Base Attack +4, Ride Mastery, Mounted Combat, Ability to cast 1st level white spells, pure white alignment
Ranger: Base Attack +4, Track, Survival Mastery, Ability to cast 1st level green spells, green alignment.

Races
Humans start with 2 feats. All other races are unchanged.

Final Notes
All classes gain 1 feat every odd level in addition to any bonus feats gained from classes.

 

[Felnar]

I could use some ideas on strength ability score feats

how about cleave or power attack or imp bull rush?

Ability Feats
At each odd ability score starting at 13 a character gains an ability feat related to that ability score. You can use these feat slots on the skill feats above or on any of the below.

wouldnt this only serve to make chars naturally good at those skills even better at those skills?

 

[Michael Morris]

Yes - that's the point.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

So... a 'Trained' skill is considered max cross-class in regards to skill checks..and 'Mastery' is max class?

Or are you changing the skill check paradigm as well?

 

[Vrecknidj]

Well, this certainly simplifies things. I wonder about the Constitution though. I mean, if you're revamping the system, why not make up some skills-as-feats for that score?

Constitution: Concentration, Resist Poison, Resist Disease, Resist Fatigue, (etc.)

Resist Poison: trained = +2 v. poison saves, master = +4 v. poison saves
etc.

Maybe throw in Endurance as a prerequisite for Resist Fatigue, change up the plus, whatever.

Dave

 

[Michael Morris]

Trained is just a +3 bonus -- though making it the max cross class isn't a bad idea at all. I'm not changing the skill checks themselves - they don't need to be checked and I don't want to waste time figuring out new DC's in any printed modules I run.

 

[Michael Morris]

Those aren't bad ideas for constitution feats, but it worries me a little since the skill ranks outstrip saving throw bonuses by nearly double (being +23 to saves +12 at 12th level), meaning changing anything from a saving throw to a skill check all but guarantees success unless the DC is changed.

 

[Yair]

With just a +3 bonus for trained I think it's too low. But having a Master-skilled player with only +4 (max ranks at 1st level) is rather rediculous too I think.

Perhaps have each feat provide a +5 and allow 5 or even 6 levels of mastery (instead of just two)?

It certainly simplifies things, which is nice. I'm a bit concerned with how these balance in comparison with normal feats.

 

[Michael Morris]

With just a +3 bonus for trained I think it's too low. But having a Master-skilled player with only +4 (max ranks at 1st level) is rather rediculous too I think.

Perhaps have each feat provide a +5 and allow 5 or even 6 levels of mastery (instead of just two)?

It certainly simplifies things, which is nice. I'm a bit concerned with how these balance in comparison with normal feats.

I disagree for this reason - Mastery is +level. If you take Mastery in a skill at 8th level you'll be getting a considerable bonus. I think I will follow Screwhead's suggestion of trained = max cross-class ranks (round down) and mastery = max ranks.

I don't want multiple ranks of mastery though - that takes a step in the wrong direction and will only serve to gobble up feats more. Look at the game outside the box for a moment -- MOST DC's are set such that your average character with max ranks has between a 50-75% shot at hitting that DC regardless of the target number aimed at. Hence making the skill a pair of feats investment is fair I think. Making characters constantly spend feat slots on skills over the life of their characters is TOO MUCH LIKE skill point which is what I'm moving away from. By making the skills into feats I'm changing it from "I have X skill in this" to "I do X well and I do Y really well." I don't want to track how many points a character has in a skill, I certainly don't want to track how many feats beyond 2 he has wrapped up in it.

As to balancing the normal feats - I feel skill feats should be the floor, or close to it. Expanding your skills should be a viable option at higher levels, but not the only option. For many classes the only way this is going to happen is if they use their normal feat slots on these.

Also any feat weaker than the skill feats (cough *toughness* cough) needs rewriting (IMC toughness is +1 hit point / level).

I'm going to play with this and tweak it, but last night's character generation went a HELL of a lot faster than it has in years past, without sacrificing too much play depth.

 

[erf_beto]

Oh my, it seems I finally found what I've been looking for.
I've been trying to come up with a similar aproach to skills, but you got there faster.

It will be a lot faster - and easier! - to play with these rules.
Great job!

Now, for my 2 cents...

The 'new' skills (stealth, perception, disable device) are good. I've been doing that in my game too. But [asking myself 'do i really care?'] where is 'profession'? Is 'lore' the same as 'Knowledge'? They remain a number of separate skills, like perform and craft, I assume.

Also, synergies still work, right? As long as you have 5 'imaginary ranks' (at character level 2 with mastery, or 7 with trained)? To make things more simple, you could get rid of it too, depending on your game. The same might apply to your banned feats (skill focus and such) - if a group is willing to go for it, I still don't see a reason why, mechanicaly, they won't work. (i'm assuming you just don't want to keep track of these modifiers)

The ability feats look great, having them tied to ability scores makes raising them a lot more fun ("Dex 17 or Wis 14? Dodge or Wis modifier +2?"). But, you're already giving out a lot of feats (1 feat every odd level), don't you think a 1st level character would get too many feats, just by having an 18 ability score? I know those are kinda of sucky feats you mentioned, but he already got a +4 modifier with that 18... still not enough? Is it balanced or should we put a cap on maximun number of ability feats you get at 1st level?

Still on that subject - though a bit away from the skills -, how does Improved Hit Die work? Spring Attack lets you move your speed both before and after an attack, effectively geting a double move and an attack? (like charge-in-the-middle? ). Anyway, I digress...

Finally, as a suggestion, I'd rule that classes that grant a bonus feat (like fighter feats, or wizard's metamagics) could instead take a skill feat for the class that granted the feat.

Not much to add, really. I really loved it. Great job!
Can't wait to see a finished version, SRD compliant