Skills in Combat
- Thread starter Montkiva
- Start date
tombowings
First Post
We'll know in two weeks. But until then, I would rule a standard action.
Mouseferatu
Hero
Primal said:
Plenty of use for skills in combat: Stealth to hide behind things and set up sneak attacks, Athletics to jump down or climb up ledges, Acrobatics to swing on stuff...
And there are plenty of ways other than "fighter powers" to trip or disarm an enemy, thanks.
Mort_Q
First Post
I would think I'd use a skill challenge like approach, rather than a simple skill ckeck.
The rogue works as quickly as she can to get the lock open.
Complicated multistage locking system, must get 4 success before 2 failures.
Success: Lock Opens. 2 Elite Soldiers appropriate to the location are behind the door. No surprise round.
Failure: 2d4 minions and 1d4-2 swarms appropriate to the location enter the scene, perhaps at random, perhaps to secure the door. Each minion, but not the swarms, has +1 bonus to damage on all attacks per failure incurred. i.e. minions spawned on the initial failure do +1 damage. The lock resets.
Player may attempt to open the lock as often as she wants until she is successful.
..... sorry, just daydreaming.
The rogue works as quickly as she can to get the lock open.
Complicated multistage locking system, must get 4 success before 2 failures.
Success: Lock Opens. 2 Elite Soldiers appropriate to the location are behind the door. No surprise round.
Failure: 2d4 minions and 1d4-2 swarms appropriate to the location enter the scene, perhaps at random, perhaps to secure the door. Each minion, but not the swarms, has +1 bonus to damage on all attacks per failure incurred. i.e. minions spawned on the initial failure do +1 damage. The lock resets.
Player may attempt to open the lock as often as she wants until she is successful.
..... sorry, just daydreaming.
Charwoman Gene
Adventurer
Mouseferatu said:
Yay.
Layeth the smackdown, undead rodent.
Total out-of-the-blue, I-haven't-seen-a-rule guess: "depends on the skill."
I would imagine that some skills (disabling a trap, for example) might be so time-intensive as to be only allowed outside of combat. Others, of course, might be very useful in combat and so allowed.
And, in some cases, I would think that a skill that might take a standard action for some might take less time for someone else (i.e. a higher-level individual might have a feat or power that allows a skill to be used more proficiently, or whatever).
Dave
I would imagine that some skills (disabling a trap, for example) might be so time-intensive as to be only allowed outside of combat. Others, of course, might be very useful in combat and so allowed.
And, in some cases, I would think that a skill that might take a standard action for some might take less time for someone else (i.e. a higher-level individual might have a feat or power that allows a skill to be used more proficiently, or whatever).
Dave
Mouseferatu said:
Then why are they once/encounter Fighter Powers in the first place, if the intended reason was to limit "one trick ponies" who constantly trip/disarm their opponents? If it's possible to trip or disarm someone without taking those Powers, who would take them?
MindWanderer
First Post
At DDXP, my party warlock attempted to disable the traps in the second encounter during combat. Assuming the DM ran it correctly, it was a standard action, and only a single success necessary. I hope that's the case; those skill challenges for traps in the preview make is so that disabling a trap in combat is nearly impossible.
Fallen Seraph
First Post
More easily set-up, takes less turns, can cause additional effects, etc.Primal said:
So instead of non-power where you: get into position, pray to the dice god you manage to trip the guy, then trip him.
Power is: You run up to him, get a easy trip and manage to curb-stomp the enemy afterwards in one round.
That is how I see it working.
I don't think skill challenges, or even complex skill challenges, are strictly out-of-combat. Look at the extra skill challenge for KotS. Each skill requires a different type of action. For example, Arcana can be used once per turn as a free action, while Heal can be used as a minor action.
The reason I ask is that there is a certain room in KotS where the characters must disarm hazards that are hurting them every round, but it takes a while to do so (e.g. 4 successes before 2 failures). It would be nice if WotC could tell us what type of skill checks requires which type of action - in the text of the hazard or trap itself.
The reason I ask is that there is a certain room in KotS where the characters must disarm hazards that are hurting them every round, but it takes a while to do so (e.g. 4 successes before 2 failures). It would be nice if WotC could tell us what type of skill checks requires which type of action - in the text of the hazard or trap itself.
AverageCitizen
Explorer
Primal said:
He's talking about disabling a trap. Several of the excerpts have specifically mentioned using skill challenges such as this in conjunction with combat to make it more interesting.
OP: I think it's prolly a full-round for disabling traps, or whatever the new equivalent is.
Mouseferatu
Hero
Primal said:
Point the first: It's possible that some other classes have powers that can also disarm or knock prone an opponent.
Point the second: It's possible that one could knock a foe prone via the standard "Attack vs. Defense" mechanic of 4E, but without the added damage/effects that classes get when using a power to do so. (For instance, we know that fighters have powers that deal damage and knock a foe prone.)
The 4E system is really very flexible.
Mouseferatu
Hero
Mort_Q said:
It would be more accurate to say that the system is designed (and there are sections that talk specifically about this) to enable players to try all sorts of weird stuff. One can use the system for tripping, sure enough; one can also use it for cutting the rope on a chandelier and dropping it on someone's head.
MindWanderer
First Post
So, for example, even if the rulebooks don't specifically have a section on tripping, you could rule on the fly that the dwarf fighter knocking a minotaur on its ass might be Str vs. Fortitude, but the halfling rogue tangling herself up between the orc's legs to trip it might be Dex vs. Reflex. 4e is a "can do" system in this way.Mouseferatu said:It would be more accurate to say that the system is designed (and there are sections that talk specifically about this) to enable players to try all sorts of weird stuff. One can use the system for tripping, sure enough; one can also use it for cutting the rope on a chandelier and dropping it on someone's head.
MindWanderer said:
While I believe in the "yes you can try" mantra, I also agree with primal and others that any mechanical benefits from skill checks in combat have to be weighed against powers.
A lot of the balancing may be that a skill check is a standard action. For example, an encounter power may do a bunch of damage and knock someone prone. Maybe I'll rule that you can try to trip someone prone with a skill or str check vs. reflex but it uses a standard action and does no damage.
Also, what about shifting? Can you use an acrobatics check to shift? Maybe shift 1 as a standard action wouldn't be too bad, but shift 3 as a move action at will would be better than the Rogue utility 2 encounter power. The proper balance will take a little playtesting to work out, I think.
Mouseferatu
Hero
MindWanderer said:
Excellent example.
bert1000 said:
I agree completely. That's why, for instance, I'd likely never allow someone to "ad-lib" an attack that dealt damage and knocked the foe prone; that's what powers are for. And if I did do so, because the situation warranted such a thing, I'd certainly impose an attack penalty.
