Skills in Combat

[Gargoyle]

At DDXP, my party warlock attempted to disable the traps in the second encounter during combat. Assuming the DM ran it correctly, it was a standard action, and only a single success necessary. I hope that's the case; those skill challenges for traps in the preview make is so that disabling a trap in combat is nearly impossible.

I would think that using a skill challenge for a trap would be used only when the trap is complex and a major part of the encounter. I could see DM's overdoing it though.

 

[Torchlyte]

Skill checks are most likely "out of combat" stuff only. Trip, Disarm etc. are Fighter Powers usable once/encounter -- nobody else may try them.

Nobody else can try them normally, but if someone wanted to use a trip I'd make it happen. It just wouldn't be as effective as a Fighter's options.

Edit: Way ninja'd.

 

[Montkiva]

I don't think skill challenges, or even complex skill challenges, are strictly out-of-combat. Look at the extra skill challenge for KotS. Each skill requires a different type of action. For example, Arcana can be used once per turn as a free action, while Heal can be used as a minor action.

The reason I ask is that there is a certain room in KotS where the characters must disarm hazards that are hurting them every round, but it takes a while to do so (e.g. 4 successes before 2 failures). It would be nice if WotC could tell us what type of skill checks requires which type of action - in the text of the hazard or trap itself.

 

[AverageCitizen]

Skill checks are most likely "out of combat" stuff only. Trip, Disarm etc. are Fighter Powers usable once/encounter -- nobody else may try them.

He's talking about disabling a trap. Several of the excerpts have specifically mentioned using skill challenges such as this in conjunction with combat to make it more interesting.

OP: I think it's prolly a full-round for disabling traps, or whatever the new equivalent is.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Then why are they once/encounter Fighter Powers in the first place, if the intended reason was to limit "one trick ponies" who constantly trip/disarm their opponents? If it's possible to trip or disarm someone without taking those Powers, who would take them?

Point the first: It's possible that some other classes have powers that can also disarm or knock prone an opponent.

Point the second: It's possible that one could knock a foe prone via the standard "Attack vs. Defense" mechanic of 4E, but without the added damage/effects that classes get when using a power to do so. (For instance, we know that fighters have powers that deal damage and knock a foe prone.)

The 4E system is really very flexible.

 

[Mort_Q]

So basically, everyone can attempt to trip, but some fighter powers, for example, are like the fighter having improved trip.

 

[Mouseferatu]

So basically, everyone can attempt to trip, but some fighter powers, for example, are like the fighter having improved trip.

It would be more accurate to say that the system is designed (and there are sections that talk specifically about this) to enable players to try all sorts of weird stuff. One can use the system for tripping, sure enough; one can also use it for cutting the rope on a chandelier and dropping it on someone's head.

 

[MindWanderer]

It would be more accurate to say that the system is designed (and there are sections that talk specifically about this) to enable players to try all sorts of weird stuff. One can use the system for tripping, sure enough; one can also use it for cutting the rope on a chandelier and dropping it on someone's head.

So, for example, even if the rulebooks don't specifically have a section on tripping, you could rule on the fly that the dwarf fighter knocking a minotaur on its ass might be Str vs. Fortitude, but the halfling rogue tangling herself up between the orc's legs to trip it might be Dex vs. Reflex. 4e is a "can do" system in this way.

 

[bert1000]

So, for example, even if the rulebooks don't specifically have a section on tripping, you could rule on the fly that the dwarf fighter knocking a minotaur on its ass might be Str vs. Fortitude, but the halfling rogue tangling herself up between the orc's legs to trip it might be Dex vs. Reflex. 4e is a "can do" system in this way.

While I believe in the "yes you can try" mantra, I also agree with primal and others that any mechanical benefits from skill checks in combat have to be weighed against powers.

A lot of the balancing may be that a skill check is a standard action. For example, an encounter power may do a bunch of damage and knock someone prone. Maybe I'll rule that you can try to trip someone prone with a skill or str check vs. reflex but it uses a standard action and does no damage.

Also, what about shifting? Can you use an acrobatics check to shift? Maybe shift 1 as a standard action wouldn't be too bad, but shift 3 as a move action at will would be better than the Rogue utility 2 encounter power. The proper balance will take a little playtesting to work out, I think.

 

[Mouseferatu]

So, for example, even if the rulebooks don't specifically have a section on tripping, you could rule on the fly that the dwarf fighter knocking a minotaur on its ass might be Str vs. Fortitude, but the halfling rogue tangling herself up between the orc's legs to trip it might be Dex vs. Reflex. 4e is a "can do" system in this way.

Excellent example.

While I believe in the "yes you can try" mantra, I also agree with primal and others that any mechanical benefits from skill checks in combat have to be weighed against powers.

I agree completely. That's why, for instance, I'd likely never allow someone to "ad-lib" an attack that dealt damage and knocked the foe prone; that's what powers are for. And if I did do so, because the situation warranted such a thing, I'd certainly impose an attack penalty.