Skills in Iron Heroes (nifty observations, too)

[buzz]

From Mearls' latest IH Design Diary, http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?designdiary_mmearls_16

Skill Challenges

Skill challenges are the backbone of the Iron Heroes skill system. I wanted a character with a +23 bonus on Hide checks to really shine. In many cases under the standard rules, a high bonus only matters if your opponent also has a big skill modifier. In that case, you need a massive bonus to have any chance of success. Otherwise, your 41 skill check result might as well be a 15, if that's all you needed to succeed.

The basic mechanic behind skill challenges may sound unfamiliar, but if you look at skills in d20, the foundation for them has long been there. I've always been struck by the fact that a character can take a penalty to his Hide check to move faster while remaining concealed. Why not extend that effect to other skills? That revelation is the essence of the skill challenge. With a skill challenge, you accept a penalty to your skill check (or an increase in the check's DC, as appropriate). In exchange, if the check succeeds, you gain an added benefit for your success. You can take a penalty to your Climb check to move faster. You can take a penalty to a Search and Disable Device check to attempt them both as one standard action. Some skills have challenges that are specific to their mechanics, while other challenges are generic benefits that you can add to any skill check.

The key to skill challenges is that they make skills useful even across levels. Even when using a skill against a static DC, you can add on skill challenges and make those additional ranks you invested work for you. NPCs who are untrained in a skill and who must make an opposed check against a highly trained PC face not only the prospect of defeat, but the potential that a smart player character can use challenges to make that defeat all the more severe.

I just thought this concept was really cool. I am conitnually amazed by Mearls' ability to innovate while still keeping things gounded in d20's basic structure.

 

[2WS-Steve]

Yah, very nice -- and some more juice for the skill system, which can always use more juice. I also like the way this moves skills more towards being like little powers, and that players can have a concrete idea of what capabilities they'll gain by pushing their skill bonus up to various breakpoints.

 

[Byrons_Ghost]

Interesting. Though, like he says, in some ways this was already implicit in the system, since DC increases and roll penalties are more or less the same thing.

What I'd really be interested in seeing is what he comes up with for social skills, if anything- there's been threads recently about Bluff and Diplomacy causing troubles as all-or-nothing skills, and I think they could definately use some expanded rules.

 

[swrushing]

From Mearls' latest IH Design Diary, http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?designdiary_mmearls_16


I just thought this concept was really cool. I am conitnually amazed by Mearls' ability to innovate while still keeping things gounded in d20's basic structure.

If you are familiar with the black Company rules, they did similar things in allowing, for instance, a number of skills to be done as free actions or reactions if you took a -10 to the roll, IIRC.

 

[buzz]

Though, like he says, in some ways this was already implicit in the system, since DC increases and roll penalties are more or less the same thing.

True, though I like the idea of the player controlling the modifier (and thus it being on the roll side, as opposed to the DC side) in exchange for an added effect they want to achieve. It's essentially Power Attack for your skills (and a lot like the combat stunt system Mearls did for Book of Iron Might).

 

[TerraDave]

True, though I like the idea of the player controlling the modifier (and thus it being on the roll side, as opposed to the DC side) in exchange for an added effect they want to achieve. It's essentially Power Attack for your skills (and a lot like the combat stunt system Mearls did for Book of Iron Might).

One of the parts I am looking foward to the most, both because it looks easier to work into my ongoing 3.5 campaign and skills really do need more "juice".

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

I'm ambivalent. I like the idea, but I'd like to see the implementation in action. One of the things that bugs me with the D&D skill system is the rampant disparity you tend to see between class and cross-class skills. The combination of the cap and the cost really discourages players from boosting skills in non-core areas. Inevitably you seem to end up with situations where (A) DCs are lower so that even characters that didn't focus on something have at least a small chance of success, which makes it trivial for the expert, or (B) high DCs that challenge the expert but that the other's won't even bother to roll.

Seems like this is trying to address A (by letting the DM keep DCs low but still encouraging the expert to get better). But before you could hope that the player would start dumping points into other skills once he felt he was good enough at XYZ, now he might just keep boosting it to do more tricks. Instead of encouraging people not to be one-skill ponies, it might become worse.

 

[buzz]

One of the things that bugs me with the D&D skill system is the rampant disparity you tend to see between class and cross-class skills.

Well, D&D is a game about experts and focused archetypes. PCs cover their non-core areas by having someone with those areas as a specialty in the party.

Instead of encouraging people not to be one-skill ponies, it might become worse.

IMO, it's rewarding PCs for the focus that already exists. Since the skill cap is still there, I'm not sure that it can get any "worse" as it were. At the very least, there are no cross-class skills in IH, so spreading out skill points should even be a little easier.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I'm ambivalent. I like the idea, but I'd like to see the implementation in action. One of the things that bugs me with the D&D skill system is the rampant disparity you tend to see between class and cross-class skills. The combination of the cap and the cost really discourages players from boosting skills in non-core areas. Inevitably you seem to end up with situations where (A) DCs are lower so that even characters that didn't focus on something have at least a small chance of success, which makes it trivial for the expert, or (B) high DCs that challenge the expert but that the other's won't even bother to roll.

Seems like this is trying to address A (by letting the DM keep DCs low but still encouraging the expert to get better). But before you could hope that the player would start dumping points into other skills once he felt he was good enough at XYZ, now he might just keep boosting it to do more tricks. Instead of encouraging people not to be one-skill ponies, it might become worse.

Actually, this isn't trying to address the D&D class/cross class distinction. Iron Heroes already does that with the removal of cross class skills entirely, and the development of the skill group system (which lets the average character spend 3 skill points per level to max out 6-12 skills).

This really seems to be more along the lines of using skills to replace the loss of things like magic items.

Personnally, I think the skill challenge system will let you do things like take a penalty to your Spot check in order to see things that are invisible.

 

[Breakdaddy]

I've gotta say, this sounds like it could be cool, but I will have to wait and see how far Mike goes with it. Ill check it out when it comes out. Until then, my skill "fix" is dropping True20's skill system into my D20 game (We play Modern and SWD20), which is a serviceable and simple solution for our group.