Skills... WoTC Blog Post

More interesting than the 4E or 3E system?

An essentially 'flat' bonus that is more fun and encourages roleplay more than the flat +5?

No more 'well you're level 15 and 1 of you has bothered to keep his stealth up to date while 3 of you haven't, so good luck sneaking anywhere?' (cut stealth and replace with climb, ride, etc. as appropriate)

Awesome.

Flat.

Awesome.
 

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I like it. I was unnerved when I first heard "Skills as Feats that are called Traits," but I'm happier after reading this interpretation.

I think this system makes sense when taken altogether, including all of the following:
  • Skills picked "like feats" as part of your background
  • Automatic success for those with a high enough Ability and/or the specific training
  • Flatter math so there's not a +30 spread between characters to attempt the same task.
  • Reliance on Ability scores for task resolution.
  • Player creativity and DM adjudication.

I like the choices a player has and the flexibility the DM might have.

If Climb is just an ability check... a PC can practically decide whether to use Str or Dex, depending on how they roleplay it. But maybe only use the "Trained in Climbing" +2 bonus if it matches the same Ability?

Hell, maybe a wizard can first make an Int check against the same Climb DC as everyone else (studying to pick a path), then make their Dex check with a +1/+2 circumstance bonus?

I like how open and creative this system seems.

I am thinking that traditional Skills that are a large part of combat might need to be treated separately. Perception/Search for example. If a Skill or Trait has the potential to give an advantage in combat (initiative, surprise rounds, avoiding traps, etc.) then everyone will feel it's necessary to take "Training in Perception," which I think Next wants to avoid.
 

This is sounding a lot like 2e Non-Weapon Proficiencies.

I remember the headache of trying to get any sort of improvement out of this system compared to going up in level. An extra +1 to one skill every three levels was pretty much no change or improvement.

Having it say you knew a skill was better than not.

This system might favour the traits over the skills.

If I am already getting to make an Int check for say Knowledge Magic with say a 16 or less because of my 16 Int then an extra +2 is not going to make me feel that much superior.

I'd rather look for the concrete benefit of having a Mentor to teach me more spells, a Grimore full of spells, and a Workshop full of materials to make Scrolls and Potions.

If I was a Knight then a +2 to improve my knowledge of Heraldry will be less important then starting with a Warhorse, Full Plate, and the Respect of being a Noble (though a nice manor with some land to earn income would be good too).

I expect people to value the 'Traits' over the +2 to Skills especially if there is further chances to 'improve' the skills with advancement while starting Traits like 'Large Size' or 'Genius Apprentice' might be impossible to acquire.

Oops, I wonder if this counts as already min-maxing to 'break' the system?
 

Hmmm, is it just me or does anyone else think we’re going to get something similar to this?

Scenario 1:

Player: I want to pick the pocket of that guy there, hoping to get the key so we can unlock the door.
DM: Okay, the DC is 16.
Player: My dexterity is 14 but I have a +2 for larceny due to my “Street Urchin” background.
DM: Sounds good. You manage to snag the key without being noticed.

Scenario 2:

Player: I want to pick the pocket of that guy there, hoping to get the key so we can unlock the door.
DM: Okay, the DC is 16.
Player: Hmm, my dexterity is only 12.
DM: Make a dexterity check then. It’s a bit risky.
Player: (rolls a 15). I rolled a 15. But, I have a +2 for larceny due to my “Street Urchin” background.
DM: Great! You rely on your instinctual tendencies from your formative years as you deftly lift the key unnoticed.

Relies on stats… keeps the math fairly flat… situational bonuses to skill use... incorporates the auto-success feature they’ve mentioned in the past.
 

Scenario 2:

Player: I want to pick the pocket of that guy there, hoping to get the key so we can unlock the door.
DM: Okay, the DC is 16.
Player: Hmm, my dexterity is only 12.
DM: Make a dexterity check then. It’s a bit risky.
Player: (rolls a 15). I rolled a 15. But, I have a +2 for larceny due to my “Street Urchin” background.
DM: Great! You rely on your instinctual tendencies from your formative years as you deftly lift the key unnoticed.

Would he not get another +1 due to 12 Dex?
 

I both like and dislike the system they are proposing. I like being skilled in something being based on your ability score and can be augmented by focusing either further on it. I don't like that an unskilled individual could be better at something than someone whose been trained, just because of raw talent.

I'd like to try a variant to see how it works out. If you're not skilled in something, your base chance of success is 8 + ability modifier. If your skilled, its your ability score + skill level. Skill level ranks from 1 to 5, using the old craftsman "names"

1 - Initiate
2 - Apprentice
3 - Journeyman
4 - Master
5 - Grand Master

If I wanted to, I could tie feats or other abilities to a minimum skill level. For example, perhaps an Initiate in Spellcraft could fashion potions, but only a journeyman could scribe scrolls and a master could inscribe teleport circles, spells crafted into Symbols or the like (just as an off-the-cuff example).
 

I both like and dislike the system they are proposing. I like being skilled in something being based on your ability score and can be augmented by focusing either further on it. I don't like that an unskilled individual could be better at something than someone whose been trained, just because of raw talent.

That's the thing, though. Under the system they are proposing, a high ability score is not merely raw talent--it's talent plus broad training in the stuff that ability applies to.

You can sort of think of ability scores, in the flatter progression, as now also covering what the 4E +1/2 level bonus does. Then if we reverse-engineer this for implications, it means that base (concept) ability scores might be relatively low. Felipe the rogue had a 12 Dex, 8 Str, 12 Int, and 10 Wis when he joined the thieves guild at age 11. It was all that running around climbing things, picking locks, throwing knives, being the lookout, etc. that caused him to end up with 16 Dex and whatever boosts to those other stats he got.

That doesn't necessarily mean that characters are built around that pattern (though I think it would be cool if they were). Maybe you just pick your stats for your first level character, pick class, etc. But when you picked that "16 Dex" you were saying, by definition, that your broad training in Dex-related things is extensive, and supplements whatever natural talent you may have.
 

That's the thing, though. Under the system they are proposing, a high ability score is not merely raw talent--it's talent plus broad training in the stuff that ability applies to.

You can sort of think of ability scores, in the flatter progression, as now also covering what the 4E +1/2 level bonus does. Then if we reverse-engineer this for implications, it means that base (concept) ability scores might be relatively low. Felipe the rogue had a 12 Dex, 8 Str, 12 Int, and 10 Wis when he joined the thieves guild at age 11. It was all that running around climbing things, picking locks, throwing knives, being the lookout, etc. that caused him to end up with 16 Dex and whatever boosts to those other stats he got.

That doesn't necessarily mean that characters are built around that pattern (though I think it would be cool if they were). Maybe you just pick your stats for your first level character, pick class, etc. But when you picked that "16 Dex" you were saying, by definition, that your broad training in Dex-related things is extensive, and supplements whatever natural talent you may have.
Great now they are redefining ability scores too.
 

I just hope that they make the math right so a city cleric isn't whether lookout than a rogue or ranger or a wizard is a better lock pick than a robe thief because of their high ability score.

That was my biggest nitpick about 4e skills. The fact that because religion was an int based skill, and wizard could train in it, wizards almost always had the highest religion score.
 

A couple of things in the blog rang warning bells for me - it suggests they're still not grappling with some fundamental issues around encounter/challenge design.

One was this:

Rather than improvise and come up with something unexpected, I found, in my own gaming experiences, players combed the skill lists on the character sheet to determine what they could and couldn’t do when presented with a challenge. And if the character didn’t have mastery with the given skill, the player, more often than not, chose not to do anything since failure could and did (with skill challenges) adversely affect the group.​

So long as encounters are designed in such a way that failure is not an option (and that is the traditional D&D approach), then players will always feel the pressure to bring their biggest numbers to bear. You don't make this pressure go away just by limiting the game to 6 numbers.

If you want the low-CHA, untrained dwarf fighter to make social skill checks, you have to create situations in which the consequences, for the player, of not making the check are worse than the consequences of failing the check. This is easy enough to do, and their are plenty of RPGs that give advice on how to do this: HeroQuest, Burning Wheel etc. The simplest approach is to set up a situation in which (i) the PC will look like an idiot if s/he doesn't talk (and I'm assuming here that the player doesn't want his/her PC to look a fool), and (ii) if the check fails that doesn't mean that the PC looked like a fool regardless, but rather that for whatever reason, the check failed to achieve what the PC (and player) hoped it would - eg despite the PC's entreaties, the duke can't agree because he feels bound by his earlier promise to the PC's rival. (Where that promise, or the duke's degree of commitment to it, is retconned in by the GM as part of the process of action resolution.)

Here is the other passage that makes me concerned:

Even if you ask the DM if your knowledge of history reveals additional information, ultimately the DM decides whether this skill is useful or not since the DM has to have historical information on hand so you can use the skill, has to make up something that might later be invalidated, or just says no.​

If they're thinking like this, no wonder they can't make History skill worthwhile! The key to making these sorts of skills worthwhile is to take a more relaxed and free-flowing approach to worldbuilding. The GM (or perhaps the player) is expected to make things up, and part of the GM's job is making sure that these aren't subsequently invalidated (eg by keeping notes).

A proper system of linked skill checks, or augments, can also help a skill like History. On its own it won't often resolve a situation, but it can be a steady source of bonuses to other, more definitive checks (knowing the history and culture of the minotaur empire, I have a better sense of where their secret caches might be; knowing the history of the duke's family, I have a better path to befriending him; etc).

Unless some of these fundamental issues are tackled, I don't think the two non-combat pillars can be made as central to the game as combat (or, at least, as central to the mechanics of the game - and once you're using freeform resolution, all this stuff about class balance, and classes being balanced via their varied contributions to the three pillars, becomes irrelevant).

Love the two trait examples, Language and Workshop. They aren't the same power level, they aren't really even quite the same category of trait.

Who cares? Both allow a player to create the desired PC. I also love the idea that some things have to be worked out on a case-by-case basis. Rules aren't going to cover everything, so it's better to admit that in the design explicitly.
I can already see Workshop creating headaches in play.

Suppose a PC captures an enemy alchemist's workshop. Now s/he has the benefit of the Workshop trait without having spent any PC build resources on it. In which case, can another PC spend a month studying with a teacher to get the benefit of the Language workshop without spending resources on it?

Or will the rules say, in these circumstances the workshop is lost by the time the next session begins, unless the player spends the resources to cement the gain? (OGL Conan, HeroWars/Quest, and The Dying Earth all use this sort of "lose it between sessions" mechanic.)

I'm not saying that these sorts of issues are fatal. There are many RPGs that solve them fine. But D&D has never really been one of those RPGs.

Won't that always be true though, in any skill system? It's not like Spot, Use Magic Device, and Tumble were ever balanced with Decipher Script, Use Rope, and Knowledge (Local).
In a system where skills can be opened without spending highly limited PC building resources, this is not a problem - or, at least, nothing like the sort of problem that it is for D&D, with its very limited skill point/feat slot mechanics.

Examples that I have in mind include Runequest, Burning Wheel and to a slightly lesser extent Rolemaster.
 

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