Skills?

[drothgery]

The curent system brings more flexibility than SAGA's.

I think you're confusing granualarity with flexibility. Individual skill points give you a lot of room to fiddle, in theory. In practice, you can't take advantage of this (at least, not in 3.x) because in any skill you're actually going to use when it's important, you've got to have things maxed out or nearly so or you won't be able to beat DCs in level-approriate challenges. And if you do that, you don't have any skill points left to fiddle with.

Whereas the SWSE system actually gives your characters flexibilty. You can choose the skills you'll be an expert at, without fear of sucking at everything else.

(And will people stop with using the all-caps SAGA for Star Wars Saga; it's got nothing to do with the old Dragonlance SAGA system. SWSE, or Saga, okay?).

 

[F4NBOY]

I think you're confusing granualarity with flexibility. Individual skill points give you a lot of room to fiddle, in theory. In practice, you can't take advantage of this (at least, not in 3.x) because in any skill you're actually going to use when it's important, you've got to have things maxed out or nearly so or you won't be able to beat DCs in level-approriate challenges. And if you do that, you don't have any skill points left to fiddle with.

Whereas the SWSE system actually gives your characters flexibilty. You can choose the skills you'll be an expert at, without fear of sucking at everything else.

(And will people stop with using the all-caps SAGA for Star Wars Saga; it's got nothing to do with the old Dragonlance SAGA system. SWSE, or Saga, okay?).

I'm not confusing anything my friend. Our tastes are only different. I like SAGA skills system because SAGA skill system makes managing skills easier than 3E skill system. But I don't think that SAGA brings as much flexibility as 3E, because in SAGA, from personal experience while playing SAGA, I see many characters looking pretty much the same regarding skills. SAGA skill system, based on the SAGA previews were meant to create jack-of-all-trades characters. That's good in SAGA, because SAGA is about simulating star wars movies, but I don't like characters being JOAT in D&D, it's not my cup of tea.
I hope they manage to create 4E using the SAGA skill system for an easier managable skill system, but tailor it to D&D standards.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Your idea is valid, but does not appeal to my taste.

Well, your palate stinks then! My ideas are all awesome!

Just kidding. Different tastes, man.

And, actually, I partially agree with you. I don't think the Saga skill system, as much as I like it, is a perfect fit for D&D. It's much mo'betta tuned for the SW universe.

On the other hand, I think the current D&D skill system, as mentioned by others, has a tendency to cause characters who are absolutely awful at just about everything except for a couple things at which they are masters. There are not enough skill points to go around to make people well-rounded without turning certain characters into actual masters of everything. Moreover, those skill points are those classes schtick (Rogue, Ranger, Bard), and degrading their lead there is unfair.

No, even though I don't think the Saga system is a perfect fit for D&D, I think it is a much better fit than the current system.

The main problem it seeks to eliminate - and it does a really good job of doing this - is the "single character solution." Succinctly, if 1 character in the party has put a bunch ranks into Swim, those ranks are largely useless. The DM can't run a water-based adventure tailored to that PC's strengths because his companions just can't keep up. Any water-based hazard which has a good chance of threatening that PC is almost guaranteed to kill the Wizard and his -1 Swim skill. Additionally, there's a limit to the number of times you can have a believable water hazard in every single dungeon - and heaven forbid if the Swimmer was knocked out in the last combat.

Instead, if everyone has a small, "General Competence" bonus to just about every skill, then it opens up the doors for the DM to have more interesting, more varied combats, encounters, and other challenges by virtue of the fact that no one member of the party will be completely incapable.

Heroic Bonus?

Then, as I used above, rename it a "General Competence at Life" bonus; nonheroic characters get it, too.

 

[BryonD]

No, he should start behaving like a low CHA hero.

The problem with the current rules is that in most cases (barring the extensive use of magic) that fighter's low Charisma means he can NOT overcome in-game weaknesses, and it automatically invalidates any approach the party can take besides "kick the door in, take names, burn the place after we collect the loot."

On his own, that is right and that is the way it should be. Anything else (within the context of this thread) would be a wink and nod to the claim that it is a low CHA fighter. If he can be expected to pull of a disguise then he isn't, no matter what may be written on the paper.

But, if the party faceman is present then things change. Slapping on a stolen uniform and just quietly following the lead of the bard doesn't need to require a bunch of checks. Heck, it may not require any checks. If someone forces an interaction with the fighter then it will fall to the bard to step in and save the day or else accept that the fighter is about to blow things.

For example, since we are already talking Star Wars, I'd say that Chewbacca had about a -10 total disguise check. So when Luke and Han needed to get him through the Death Star dention area, they took that into account in their plan.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

On his own, that is right and that is the way it should be. Anything else (within the context of this thread) would be a wink and nod to the claim that it is a low CHA fighter. If he can be expected to pull of a disguise then he isn't, no matter what may be written on the paper.

But, if the party faceman is present then things change. Slapping on a stolen uniform and just quietly following the lead of the bard doesn't need to require a bunch of checks. Heck, it may not require any checks. If someone forces an interaction with the fighter then it will fall to the bard to step in and save the day or else accept that the fighter is about to blow things.

For example, since we are already talking Star Wars, I'd say that Chewbacca had about a -10 total disguise check. So when Luke and Han needed to get him through the Death Star dention area, they took that into account in their plan.

And they still failed their checks against the (level appropriate) commander in the detention area, AFTER they bluffed their way past hundreds of mooks in the hallway.

That's EXACTLY what Saga rules would predict. And it was the most interesting possible outcome.

Heroic characters can beat up mooks (as long as the numbers aren't impossible), and they can also trick, confuse, and bluff them most of the time. But as soon as they run into someone with an actual investment in his spot (or perception) check, things get interesting.

YMMV, but that makes for a more interesting game, IMO.

 

[Scribble]

Maybe someone already mentioned this, but...

I wish instead of doing away with seperate hide/move silently skills they simply had a breakout average for them.. you roll perception against them both, but still have a means for breaking it down if need be.

But maybe that complicates things too much.

 

[WayneLigon]

I think this is pretty interesting.

Matt drops an awesome idea on my head involving skills. This is a cool idea, something that in nine months will be loved by everyone who feels that the skill system in 3e didn't do enough.
...

Now, I have to be coy about the exact nature of the concept. It isn't the kind of thing that will revolutionize D&D, but it's a good, cool, solid idea that makes skills more interesting, more important in combat encounters, and more fun. I can't wait to use it in playtest.

So, that's what it was like to work on 4e circa 1:15 PM, Wednesday, August 22, 2007.

 

[BryonD]

And they still failed their checks against the (level appropriate) commander in the detention area, AFTER they bluffed their way past hundreds of mooks in the hallway.

That's EXACTLY what Saga rules would predict. And it was the most interesting possible outcome.

Um, no.
The saga rules would have allowed Chewbacca to gain a fiat bonus to his disguise skill and very possibly made it on through the challenge despite a total lack of reason in that outcome.

As was being slammed just a few posts ago, once the low cha fighter was forced to make a check he failed and things turned to combat. And yes, this was quite interesting. Though perhaps if Han or Luke had been BETTER at disguise they could have covered for Chewy longer and the scene could have played out differently.

But under no analysis of what happened does it make sense to claim that things worked out because Chewy had an omincompetent bonus to his disguise skill helping out. Exactly to the contrary, the plan worked for exactly as long as they were able to work around his complete lack of ranks.

 

[BryonD]

I think this is pretty interesting.

Me too.

Also, it furthers adds to my confidence that a straight SWSE skill system is not the decree.

 

[UndeadScottsman]

After 20 levels, your grumpy, uncompromising Dwarf has learned enough through his adventures about how to better articulate why he's so grumpy and uncompromising. So, when the King's guards say that he cannot take his weapons into the Kings chamber, he goes from

"You'll take my axe when you pry 'em from my cold, dead hands" and possibly causing an incident at early levels to "It would be an insult to my ancestors, including my father who left me this axe when he died, to let a non dwarf lay hands upon my weapon." and then being politely asked to wait outside, or even be allowed into the chamber after impressing the King's advisor with his honor.

Likewise, with the 20th Wizard and 1st Barbarian having similar intimidates, it's the difference between "Raaaaarghhh! Thog smash!" and "I am a master of the arcane arts and if you take another step, I shall call down forces you could scarely understand and obliterate you." That, coming from what is apparently a high level wizard, should be at least as scary as a low level barbarian screaming and charging at you.

Likewise, for the high level Wizard having a decent climb check; you'd think after the 20th thing he's had to climb over, and hanging out with other adventures who can climb up stuff, he'd pick a few things up and at least be able to climb up an average cliff with no problem (He won't be doing any advanced rock climbing, but he can get around at least)