Skills?

[DonTadow]

Agreed. I would do it like this:

- When you create a character (before you choose your class), you gain Skill Focus with a # of skills equal to 3+Int modifier (maybe more, depending on how big the skill list is in 4e).

- Skill Focus feat gives you a +5 bonus to a skill.

- First level and all other odd levels of any class give you a +1 bonus to all your class skills. Character level doesn't matter. Class skills have no other uses or implications.

- Humans pick 2 skills more.

- Example (using 3,5's skill set): A dwarf fighter with Int 10 takes Ride, Swim, and Diplomacy to receive a +5 bonus. He has 8 fighter levels and 3 barbarian levels. He has +4 bonus to all fighter class skills, +2 bonus to barbarian class skills (total of +6 for skill on both lists, like Climb), and a +5 bonus to Ride, Swim, and Diplomacy on top of that.

Simple and diverse
Any takers?

But that's far too much math and you're back into the same boat of managing skills and different ranks at different levels.

New system, i am this level, my skill rank is this, no math. Does it take someting away from the game?

No. Sure there's no more tweaking. but their trying to design the automatic transmission not a muscle car.

 

[SteveC]

I just thought that I would take a moment to pimp my own suggested fixes for this in Star Wars Saga edition. Take a look here...and let me know what you think.

--Steve

 

[Henry]

Most characters can't climb a tree without a roll, man. That's a MUNDANE task. DCs are VERY variable. In some skills, a 15 does in fact model something that's hard in real life. In other cases, two 15s in the same skill represent things that are enormously different in their real world difficulty, IMO.

I don't know - a tree climb is described as an example of a DC 15 task, which someone with a +5 bonus could do while taking 10 as long as they're not rushed. When you say "most characters couldn't climb a tree without a roll," I assume you're speaking about 3E currently - which is my point. I can respect wanting to make your average adventurer an all-around survivor (having a decent chance to climb trees, bluff past guards, etc.) but by the same token you have players who don't want the all-around competent guy - they want someone with more "realistic" deficiencies, to make them more "real."

Maybe I'm the one at fault for expecting the system to have some relationship to reality.

Relationship to reality to me IS that not every adventurer/mercenary type will have basic skill in everything. TONS of stuff yes, but everything, no.

What it REALLY comes down to is not what's real or plausible or not, but down to what players want. If a significant portion of players want the option for tweaking skills more my personal belief), then WotC would be better off serving their customer base and giving them one. If not enough are complaining about it, then they shouldn't see any need to. That's why I'm adding my two cents here and elsewhere, to let them know there's at least some dissent with a system too close to Star Wars Saga. It's also why you find me piping up about misgivings at "per-encounter" design, but that's a topic of a different thread.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Relationship to reality to me IS that not every adventurer/mercenary type will have basic skill in everything. TONS of stuff yes, but everything, no.

What it REALLY comes down to is not what's real or plausible or not, but down to what players want. If a significant portion of players want the option for tweaking skills more my personal belief), then WotC would be better off serving their customer base and giving them one. If not enough are complaining about it, then they shouldn't see any need to. That's why I'm adding my two cents here and elsewhere, to let them know there's at least some dissent with a system too close to Star Wars Saga. It's also why you find me piping up about misgivings at "per-encounter" design, but that's a topic of a different thread.

Fair enough. And I'll defend minimal bookkeeping until the cows come home.

 

[Miar]

After reading all this I'm not sure where the problem is. It seems like people's biggest problem is the the thought that everyone might end up good at everything. If this is in fact a problem you could just require all characters to choose 2 skills or whatever that they will always suck in. Or let the default stand but if a character chooses say two skills to be completely hopeless in give them an extra skill focus or skill trick in something else. The wizard can't swim because his real interest is in romance novels in which he has skill focus.

 

[Szatany]

But that's far too much math and you're back into the same boat of managing skills and different ranks at different levels.

New system, i am this level, my skill rank is this, no math. Does it take someting away from the game?

No. Sure there's no more tweaking. but their trying to design the automatic transmission not a muscle car.

Too much math? Where are you from, it doesn't even use skill points.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Sounds to me like you may be messing up your DCs.
If it is a mundane task then the DC should not be over about a 5, 10 tops.

I'd agree that DC15 for climbing a tree is too high.

A lot of problems with the skill system are actually better mitigated by setting the DCs at the right point and making better use of Take 10 than I have typically seen.

I think here it falls on the DM not to hassle the players with even having to tell him they are taking 10. You can speed up play a lot by assuming it.

"Gord is the first to get to the top of the rocky slope, but with some difficulty, the rest of you scramble up after him. Still, you probably wouldn't want to have to try that with bandits shooting at you."

 

[BryonD]

"Gord is the first to get to the top of the rocky slope, but with some difficulty, the rest of you scramble up after him. Still, you probably wouldn't want to have to try that with bandits shooting at you."

Yep, things exactly like this are common at my table.
Also, sometimes it is more like "Maboo doesn't like the look of the short cliff to much. He can make it, but it may take a little effort." Which means that Maboo is the only one who can not automatically climb it. Often this is just flavor and we assume 3 or 4 "rolls" and maybe a couple scrapes and bruises. But if round by round is important everyone knows that they need to consider if Maboo climbing is the best choice.

 

[Visceris]

Skill wise every fighter is going to be the same, every wizard will be the same, nearly every rogue will be the same. Its just lame.

 

[The Grackle]

Skill wise every fighter is going to be the same, every wizard will be the same, nearly every rogue will be the same. Its just lame.

Isn't that the case now? maybe not w/rogues, but wizards an fighters? I'll bet if we compared a lot of PCs, they would be remarkably similar.