BryonD said:
Oh, and BTW it is not a hand wave to say that characters should be expected to face challenges outside their normal abiltities. That is a feature, not a bug. To the contrary, to assume that characters should be able to handle anything that comes their way every time would be a terrible bug.
The handwave was "Depending on magic items". Sure, anyone can handle a challenge if they get to have a specific magic item for the job (skill-boosters are the easiest one here). I will point out, that using the SWSE system, if the DC is set to be a challenge someone trained in the skill, the chances of an unskilled person making the test are much lower (roughly 25%, depending on the specific DC). If it's one that a trained person can make under no stress virtually all the time (a Take-10 allows passing), the untrained person can make it that 25% (has to roll a 15). So it's clearly NOT impossible to set up a challenge such that the skilled person shines. Furthermore, if it is a "trained use" of the skill, there's no way the untrained person can even test. I don't want a system where characters can handle anything. I do want a system where I can set up challenges that untrained
heroes can deal with challenges that mooks would find challenging (without making it too easy for the specialist), but when it's important the specialist has to step up, because no-one else can do it. I very much want trained-only skills or skill uses. But in the end, I want the entire party to have a chance to sneak past the 1-st level guards when they are 5th level, but still have the 5-th level guard commander spot them on his rounds, say. Or have the 15-level thief who hasn't decided to be an intimidating thug can still intimidate a 5-th level fence.
Psion said:
Did you read the post you just quoted? I'll re-emphasize "multiple paths to success". Which means that there are a variety of skills that could be applied to a given situation to improve the odds/ease of success. It's not difficult to write adventures this way, and more skill based systems have done so for a long time.
Most skill-based systems can safely assume that each PC has a few spare skill points. To pick some examples of PHB core classes that don't: Fighters, clerics, and Sorcerers. All 2 skill points per level, and all have a fairly restrictive class skill list. The heavy armor types also have the additional disadvantage of either having to give up their armor or eat the penalties associated with the armor in relation to stealth skills. At least one of those "multiple paths to success" has to allow an untrained person to be able to make the test. Most paths to success require that everyone be able to pass the same check at some point. So you either have to set a rather low DC, or figure out how the fighter with no stealth skills and only intimidate in social skills can get through.
You can design around your specific party, of course. But generic adventure writers can't do that. When you target an unknown party, you have to target the "iconic" party, who only has the one character capable of sneaking, bluffing, balancing, or swimming.
