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Skills?

Rystil Arden said:
Here this goes again--why does the DC have to not be a no-brainer for a dedicated cat-burglar.

Because if there are never any walls that are DC 30 Climb checks, then nobody ever will spend those ranks to get to that level of expertise. In general, a 20th-level Rogue with 15 ranks in 15 skills will virtually always out-Rogue the 20th-level Rogue with 23 ranks in 10 skills; because the extra 8 ranks in the 10 skills will virtually never matter, whereas the 15 ranks in the other five (where Rogue number 2 has none, because he was busy maxing out his other skills) will come up much, much more often. No matter which fifteen skills you're talking about.

Yes, there's the roleplaying benefit of being able to lord it over the other Rogue--"I'm a faster wall-climber than you! Nyah-nyah!" Whatever.
 

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ruleslawyer said:
The real question vis-a-vis, say, SWSE, is whether a +5 difference is sufficient to distinguish an untrained character from a trained one, or a +10 difference is sufficient to distinguish an untrained character from a specialist in the skill. My feeling is that when you add in the stat modifiers and trained-only skill uses, it probably is enough.
It is my feeling, as well.
 


Christian said:
Because if there are never any walls that are DC 30 Climb checks, then nobody ever will spend those ranks to get to that level of expertise. In general, a 20th-level Rogue with 15 ranks in 15 skills will virtually always out-Rogue the 20th-level Rogue with 23 ranks in 10 skills; because the extra 8 ranks in the 10 skills will virtually never matter, whereas the 15 ranks in the other five (where Rogue number 2 has none, because he was busy maxing out his other skills) will come up much, much more often. No matter which fifteen skills you're talking about.

Yes, there's the roleplaying benefit of being able to lord it over the other Rogue--"I'm a faster wall-climber than you! Nyah-nyah!" Whatever.
I'm not so sure, particularly when you say "No matter which 15 skills". When it comes to opposed skills, the Rogue who took max ranks is going to do quite well compared to the Rogue who stopped 8 ranks short. In fact, she will outperform the Rogue who stopped 8 ranks short (the same Rogue you suggest will outperform her!) more in those skills than she would an untrained character in SWSE.

Climb is one of those skills that doesn't need super high DC checks because eventually (And sometimes sooner rather than later--I've seen a first level Wizard with an owl have the owl carry and hook a light grappling hook) you can fly. Put in too many rooms with an antimagic field and no air currents so natural flyers can't fly, and you're being more than a bit unfair, I think.
 

Another way to look at the possible Saga style skill system is that the skill bonus of high level untrained characters is not actual experience in the skill, but rather a consequence of that certain je ne se qua and luck that experienced characters possess. In fact, it is more like their saving throw bonuses, which don't necessarily represent extra training or skill in the save category but a sort of heroic reserve that can get them out of situations that would kill those of "lesser" mettle. This is probably a great way to look at it since many skills are actually used like saving throws against many different effects.
 


Rystil Arden said:
Or to put it more simply--players feel *good* if they have the right thing to complete a task. They don't feel bad if the task was easy because they thought to have the correct niche item or skill. If they bought Slippers of Spider Climbing and the climb was a synch, they're going to high-five the guy who thought to bring the Slippers. It would, at least in my groups, be poor adventure design of the highest degree to try to make the encounter challenging for the group that brought the optimal solution along. If the skill system was changed so that everyone could automatically handle a particular aspect of the task, and not only that, the DCs were arbitrarily scaled by a GM with the explicit power level of the PCs in mind, it takes away any sense of accomplishment:

"Yeah, I know I have +25 to Balance now, but I still only make Balance checks about 75% of the time, just like at first level, because everything is just harder to balance with now. It's weird that way."

This is exactly what happens now though - looking through my high level Dungeon adventures I see DC 30-40 checks all over the place - and these are the adventures that people generally seem to consider to be the *good* ones.

And really, if every other challenge in the game scales with level ("Yeah, I know I can easily wipe out a tribe of kobolds, but for some reason I just never seem to fight them anymore!"), I'm not sure that skill-based ones shouldn't as well - and there needs to be some way to deal with the fact that everyone in the party has to get across that slippery rope bridge or fight on that ice-covered floor, or whatever. Saga seems to handle that quite well to me.
 



Should characters have the tools to take on wildly non-level appropriate challenges, though? What is a level appropriate DC for a 10th level character. Why is that a level-appropriate DC for a 10th level character? Under the current skill system, that question cannot be answered for the general case, it can only be answered for the particular party that is encountering the challenge.

Please stop concentrating on the specific skill examples I'm using - I think I'm going to start using opposed skills from now on; as opponent skill levels should scale with Encounter Level (as should envirnmental DCs in many non-opposed skill encounters according to game design).

Let take a look at a different "gateway" encounter: The PCs have to get a particular item from an NPC - this is a an encounter with an EL equal to the party's APL, so the DC shoud absolutely be scaled to the party's level. They can get it by social skills (diplomacy/bluff), they can get it by picking his pocket, or they can kill him and loot his corpse. What should I set the NPCs skill levels in Sense Motive and Spot to to make it a challenge for most parties? Lets go back to my 10th-level examples. Assume for the nonce that all parties can kill&loot at equal effectiveness, and that all parties can RP for bonuses at an equal level, so we care about social vs sense motive, and sleight of hand vs spot. First of all, I have to deal with characters who have been splitting focus between bluff and diplomacy vs characters who have been focusing on one or the other. Assuming my 10th level example, and assuming the parties could optionally have a magic item that grants +10 to either skill, the range of skill bonuses runs from +9 to +28. That's a 21-point delta, if I split the difference to set the NPCs skill on Sense motive at a 50% chance for the middle (IE, a check of +19), the lower example has to roll a 20 to beat the NPCs 10, whereas in the higher example, the NPC has to roll a 19 to beat the PCs check of 10. In other words, I've bought the worst of both worlds - I am simultaneously overly challenging the PC who has split his skill points between bluff and diplomacy and not picked up feats or magic items to boost the skill itself and not challenging the character who has focused on one of the skills and has picked up feats or magic items. The same goes for sleight of hand (because it is such a niche skill, most people won't max it, but it cant be ruled out). What is an appropriate skill level for the NPC on his Spot check, when facing a 10th-level party?

And there are 2 consequences here - if I set the DC too low, the party doesn't get challenged and shouldn't be given XP for the encounter (if there is no element of risk, it's not a challenge). If I set it too high, it automatically defaults to kill&loot and has the secondary effects of a combat (other enemies alerted, etc).

Whereas in SWSE I can relatively easily figure out what the DC should be. 5 for 1/2 level, plus 0, 5, or 10 for untrained, trained or focused respectively, and +2 for a reasonable assumption about stats. "Base" DC is either 5, 10 or 15 if I want an easy, moderate, or difficult challenge. If I set a middle of the road challenge of 17, that's exactly right for a trained character, the focused character still finds the encounter interesting. If I am worried about an untrained character making the check, I can either bump the DC to 20, or make sure the use of the skill is "trained-only". And in the end, who cares if the untrained character lucks out and makes the check?

One of the design & Development articles (IIRC) talks about how the devs are working on a social challenge system of making multiple checks - that would put to bed my worries about the untrained character making one check by luck, if they have to make several (via roleplaying) to make it through an encounter. He made it once, can he do it again?
 

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