Sleep Poison not a Sleep Effect?!?!?!?!?!

[Ashtagon]

Weird issue here.

You say immune to sleep effects obviously covers sleep poison, so they didn't write it in.

Someone else says immune to sleep effects obviously doesn't covers sleep poison, so they didn't write it in.

Who is to say either is right?

 

[frankthedm]

The fact that sleep is not in the list of status effects says to me that there is no concrete definition as to what a sleep effect is.

Sleep :: d20srd.org
Symbol of Sleep :: d20srd.org
Deep Slumber :: d20srd.org

Poison (Ex)
Injury, Fortitude DC 13, initial damage sleep for 1 minute, secondary damage sleep for another 5d6 minutes. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.

Special Arrows (Ex)
Pixies sometimes employ arrows that deal no damage but can erase memory or put a creature to sleep.

Sleep
Any opponent struck by this arrow, regardless of Hit Dice, must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be affected as though by a sleep spell. The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.

Pseudodragon :: d20srd.org


Sleep Arrow
This +1 arrow is painted white and has white fletching. If it strikes a foe so that it would normally deal damage, it instead bursts into magical energy that deals nonlethal damage (in the same amount as would be lethal damage) and forces the target to make a DC 11 Will save or fall asleep.

Faint enchantment; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, sleep; Price 132 gp; Cost 69 gp 5 sp + 5 XP.

 

[Vegepygmy]

The fact remains that I haven't seen a convincing example of why a character with immunity to sleep effects would be affected by sleep poison, whether or not the effect is unconsciousness.

I think you've gotten your answer, and just don't like it.

Which I can understand. It does seem unfair that immunity to sleep effects would not protect one from "drow sleep poison." But there is definitely a cogent argument that it doesn't.

 

[Siuis]

Once again, your argument is all about semantics. Allow me to define the word sleep if I may:

Sleep: An UNCONSCIOUS state the body enters in order to repair itself.

To further the debate the way I see it is the dragon shaman has dedicated his life to emulating dragons, including their ability to shake off any unnatural attempts to render them unconscious, magical or otherwise.

Sleep effects, AFIK, have never been officially defined by WOTC. I believe this is because it should be obvious. A sleep effect is any that would immediately render the target unconscious. Obviously, some things would get around this, such as non-lethal damage.

The idea that anyone could say that SLEEP POISON is not a sleep effect, when it's in the name, just because it doesn't say "sleep" as the effect, is just utter nonsense. It doesn't make sense in any way, shape, or form.

Actually, if dragons resisted all attempts to render them non-conscious, why don't they benefit from the Diehard feat at all times and have a sidebar saying that nonlethal damage and suffocation cannot render them unconscious? Because they would have to have full-spectrum protection for your claim to have merit.

Yes, it didn't specify magical sleep, but as any drunk can tell you, sleep and being poisoned past consciousness are different. It's sort of a jerk-move, but unconsciousness poison does affect the shaman.

He'll, it may have been designed by the DM to specifically affect said shaman, since the player was in a position where he expected his protection to kick in (saying "I'm immune" when the DM only asked for a fort save means he knew what the affect should be).

Yet again, another physical example. The fact remains that I haven't seen a convincing example of why a character with immunity to sleep effects would be affected by sleep poison, whether or not the effect is unconsciousness.

So you are willing to have a poison that arbitrarily deals, we'll say 100 damage to a mental ability score, can render you unconscious because the rules say so (no further explanation needed) but a poison thatrenders you unconscious can't do so because there is no definition in-game specifically separating sleep and unconsciousness, despite multiple cited in-game examples (which, to use your own argument, should be obvious enough they don't need further explanation)?
It seems like the answer, while painful, is right there. What is the difference between asphyxiation via blocked airway, and asphyxiation via a toxin which renders your blood less able to process oxygen? Unconscious is just that. Sleep is definitely something different, and saying "you can't cite the most obvious evidence as proof" in the case of nonlethal damage is just... Well, trying to bully your way into finding support. No rule to my memory says you should stay conscious, but several I can recall (but not cite, I'm afraid) specify that poison can bypass the usual sleep immunity (as with elves).

 

[Final_boss325]

Actually, if dragons resisted all attempts to render them non-conscious, why don't they benefit from the Diehard feat at all times and have a sidebar saying that nonlethal damage and suffocation cannot render them unconscious? Because they would have to have full-spectrum protection for your claim to have merit.

Yes, it didn't specify magical sleep, but as any drunk can tell you, sleep and being poisoned past consciousness are different. It's sort of a jerk-move, but unconsciousness poison does affect the shaman.

He'll, it may have been designed by the DM to specifically affect said shaman, since the player was in a position where he expected his protection to kick in (saying "I'm immune" when the DM only asked for a fort save means he knew what the affect should be).



So you are willing to have a poison that arbitrarily deals, we'll say 100 damage to a mental ability score, can render you unconscious because the rules say so (no further explanation needed) but a poison thatrenders you unconscious can't do so because there is no definition in-game specifically separating sleep and unconsciousness, despite multiple cited in-game examples (which, to use your own argument, should be obvious enough they don't need further explanation)?
It seems like the answer, while painful, is right there. What is the difference between asphyxiation via blocked airway, and asphyxiation via a toxin which renders your blood less able to process oxygen? Unconscious is just that. Sleep is definitely something different, and saying "you can't cite the most obvious evidence as proof" in the case of nonlethal damage is just... Well, trying to bully your way into finding support. No rule to my memory says you should stay conscious, but several I can recall (but not cite, I'm afraid) specify that poison can bypass the usual sleep immunity (as with elves).

Wow...jeez. Where to start with that one?

1. About two posts ago I even said that physical things that cause unconsciousness would be exceptions, such as non-lethal damage, being in negative hit points, and having a zero strength score. The ability says sleep effects, not unconscious situations.

2. The fact that sleep isn't in the list of status effects in the DMG leads me to believe that there is no concrete definition of a sleep effect. Reading the description of the sleep spells, i believe they were implying unconscious.

3. I can't buy the whole "It says unconsciousness as the effect so obviously it doesn't cause sleep" thing. This is just arguing semantics.

4. I never said I should be immune to all the effects of said poison, just the sleep effect. If it had a 1d4 dex and unconsciousness effect, I believe I would take the dex damage, but not the other effect.

5. I stated the literal definition of sleep earlier. Even with rudimentary logic, one can figure out that sleep poison=tranquilizer. People snore, dream and wake refreshed from tranquilizers (As long as they don't abuse them.) UNCONSCIOUSNESS=SLEEP.

6. As for being poisoned past consciousness? The dragon shaman has dedicated his life to emulating dragons. Including learning how to shake off things that would UNNATURALLY cause him to suddenly lose consciousness, magical or otherwise. He wouldn't spend time worrying about unconscious vs. sleep.

7. If the poison was designed to work on me, there was no mention of this. I'll clarify the situation a little more in a sec.

8. THE WHOLE ARGUMENT OF THIS POST FROM THE BEGINNING WAS THE DM SAYING MY ABILITY ONLY WORKS ON SPELL OR SLAs THAT CAUSE SLEEP, WHEN OBVIOUSLY IT WORKS ON ALL SLEEP EFFECTS.

9. And finally, I stand by old argument of "If it's called a sleep poison, (as it was to me) it's a sleep effect.

Apparently, as I've discovered, the encounter was one of those "supposed to lose fights". I despise these things but that's beyond the point. We were under attack by bounty hunters that were trying to capture us alive. If we're going to go through one of these stupid things, I would think that the DM would be a little more creative with things rather than saying "Uh...this sleep effect does work on you". There were a lot of ways he could have handled it, and he took the "DM magic" route. I'm sorry but if my immune-to-sleep-effects character is going to be put to sleep by your poison, you better be able to tell me how/where/when/and from who this poison came from (keeping player knowledge and character knowledge separate), and it better be good. "DM magic" doesn't fly with me...and I guess that's why I'm so frustrated.

Logic is the name of the game here. Not rules nazi-ing. When the end result is the same I believe the effect is the same. Allow me to show an example:

1+1+1+1+1 = 5

Both sides of the equation say the same thing...just in different ways. One may look longer and more complicated but they equal out to the same thing.

 

[irdeggman]

Wow...jeez. Where to start with that one?

2. The fact that sleep isn't in the list of status effects in the DMG leads me to believe that there is no concrete definition of a sleep effect. Reading the description of the sleep spells, i believe they were implying unconscious.

Your logic is totally faulty here.

By your reasoning unconsiousness = sleep, which has been pointed out several times (and dismissed by you) as not being true.

While sleep can render you unconscious is a valid argument the counter is not (unconsiousness renders you sleeping). Using your argument creatures that are immune to sleep cannot be rendered unconsious. OH and before yo start on with the "physical is different" - not that no where in the rules does it state this. Unconsciousness is a condition.

3. I can't buy the whole "It says unconsciousness as the effect so obviously it doesn't cause sleep" thing. This is just arguing semantics.

All rules based arguments revolve around semantics - that is what makes them so "touchy".

5. I stated the literal definition of sleep earlier. Even with rudimentary logic, one can figure out that sleep poison=tranquilizer. People snore, dream and wake refreshed from tranquilizers (As long as they don't abuse them.) UNCONSCIOUSNESS=SLEEP.

Again, totally false in D&D and real world definitions.

Per the Rules Compendium (pg 35)

Unconscious: An unconsious creature is knocked out and helpless.

Now how does this fit into your definition?

7. THE WHOLE ARGUMENT OF THIS POST FROM THE BEGINNING WAS THE DM SAYING MY ABILITY ONLY WORKS ON SPELL OR SLAs THAT CAUSE SLEEP, WHEN OBVIOUSLY IT WORKS ON ALL SLEEP EFFECTS.

Yup and by the tone you have taken in your arguments (I could be misreading the intent of you total bolding) - it would appear that one of the things working against you is that you are being confrontational with the DM and not cooperative and working together to create an enjoyable game.. This becomes one of the major problems with on-line games , people do not have the face-to-face discussions that alleviate hurt feelings.

Logic is the name of the game here. Not rules nazi-ing. When the end result is the same I believe the effect is the same. Allow me to show an example:

1+1+1+1+1 = 5

Both sides of the equation say the same thing...just in different ways. One may look longer and more complicated but they equal out to the same thing.

But yet you constantly refer to their not being a "defnition of sleep effect" in the D&D rules and your logic "leads" you the the statement that UNCONSCIOUSNESS=SLEEP which is not logic at all since in the real world they are not.

 

[Final_boss325]

Alright. I'm tired of arguing. I'm just gonna look at it like my character saw all his comrades going down from the poison and forgot he's immune to the crap. Maybe sometime I'll post the build...ask for opinions on that.

I bow down to the board's superior logic and shame myself in response to my overwhelming inadequacies.

Seriously, thanks for the help.

 

[Runestar]

Aha! Found it!!! From page 98 of the FAQ,

Dragons are immune to sleep and paralysis effects. Does this include “unconsciousness” effects, such as from drow poison or a color spray spell?

No. Both sleep and paralysis effects create specific conditions defined in the rules (although the “sleeping” condition created by most sleep effects is typically defined in the effect, rather than the glossary). Unconsciousness is an entirely different condition, and dragons are not immune to becoming unconscious.

Do note I am not attempting to gloat or anything, since I reviewed my post and thought the tone might have come across as just a tad arrogant. I know I ruled the I did because I read said article years ago, and am elated at having found it again.

 

[Final_boss325]

Aha! Found it!!! From page 98 of the FAQ,

Do note I am not attempting to gloat or anything, since I reviewed my post and thought the tone might have come across as just a tad arrogant. I know I ruled the I did because I read said article years ago, and am elated at having found it again.

Wow. Just after I've surrendered you actually find proof of it. Crap, why couldn't you have found that a lot earlier?! Lol. Big thanks, now I know, once and for all, officially, that I am wrong. Thanks.

On a lighter note, if I wanted to post my build, can I do it here? Or should I start a new thread?

 

[amethal]

For what its worth :-

Since this poison is not a magical effect, drow and other elves are susceptible to it

That implies that drow would otherwise be immune to their "unconsciousness" poison by virtue of their immunity to (magical) sleep.