Sleep. Sleep! SLEEP!

[hennebeck]

The reason why I ask is because this doesn't seem nearly as lame as people are trying to make it out to be.
You could miss, and still end up with some one slowed for a whole encounter. 3e didn't do that.
And if they fail one saving throw, they are asleep for a whole round atleast. As long as you can hit, they fall asleep. Goblin or Troll or Dragon.
You could effect up to 25 creatures. Level only matters on the initial attack.

IMO, I find this spell pretty cool.

Just like there is no save or die in 4e, there is no cast and done. MM or Sleep. That seems fair and balanced to me.

Thank you all.
And Morrus, you just happened to be in the AoE. Sorry.

 

[Valerion Steele]

now i understand your plan hennebeck... put morrus to sleep and steal his books....

 

[Vael]

Plus, hennebeck's spell slows all of them, allowing the party to abscond the books and beat a hasty retreat.

 

[Harr]

The reason why I ask is because this doesn't seem nearly as lame as people are trying to make it out to be.
You could miss, and still end up with some one slowed for a whole encounter. 3e didn't do that.
And if they fail one saving throw, they are asleep for a whole round atleast. As long as you can hit, they fall asleep. Goblin or Troll or Dragon.
You could effect up to 25 creatures. Level only matters on the initial attack.

IMO, I find this spell pretty cool.

Not to mention attacking+hitting someone doesn't wake them up from their Sleep. That makes a huge difference, one I hadn't realized until recently. You could have the whole party gang up on the sleeping guy and just bash him for a whole round until he saves or he's done. No?

 

[Mercule]

The reason why I ask is because this doesn't seem nearly as lame as people are trying to make it out to be.
You could miss, and still end up with some one slowed for a whole encounter. 3e didn't do that.

The encounter that convinced us all that sleep was lame had the kobolds already in melee with the fighter and paladin and the wizard was trying to do crowd control to let the defenders regroup. By the time the kobolds even got a save, they'd already gotten their attacks and dropped the paladin -- who wasn't even bloodied, previously -- to -7 hp. Then, only one failed his save, and the other two turned on the fighter and almost killed her. Yes, the paladin had ticked off some higher power last night, but the wizard blew his daily power and felt like a complete joke.

 

[jaelis]

So what I want to know is, what happens if you cast sleep on a bunch of hobgoblins, and they use their hobgoblin resilience power. If they fail that immediate save, do they immediately fall asleep?

 

[Hussar]

The encounter that convinced us all that sleep was lame had the kobolds already in melee with the fighter and paladin and the wizard was trying to do crowd control to let the defenders regroup. By the time the kobolds even got a save, they'd already gotten their attacks and dropped the paladin -- who wasn't even bloodied, previously -- to -7 hp. Then, only one failed his save, and the other two turned on the fighter and almost killed her. Yes, the paladin had ticked off some higher power last night, but the wizard blew his daily power and felt like a complete joke.

So the reason the power is lame is because the wizard went really late in the round (poor initiative), then rolled very poorly against the kobolds saves.

Is that correct?

 

[small pumpkin man]

And... any way you slice it, sleep is a nearly worthless spell. It might be an appropriate encounter power, but there is no way any sane person is going to pick it for a daily spell. From what I saw while running KotS, sleep may be tame enough for an at-will power. Slow is one of the weakest conditions after the first round of combat. That first round is the only thing that warrants sleep as an encounter power.

Of course, that'd make it effectively at-will.

Thing is, area effect slow with no defense is a good ability. The possibility to make cratures unconsious is a really good ability. Both would be very good encounter powers, and together they should make a good daily.

The reason they don't is that when these two abilities are helpfull is completely different. It's not just that area effect slow is most useful when the monsters are on the other side of the room, so much that the other effect of the spell, the possibility to coup de grace monsters, is most useful if you happen to be standing right next to the monsters.

Together with the fact that it doesn't have a chance to turn creatures unconsious untill the end of their turn this makes it very difficult to figure out what the tactical uses of the spell are, as shown by the example with the Kobolds.

 

[Caliber]

I'd say Sleep is pretty good for letting someone get away, if the initiative order works with you. It seems like it works best if you can Sleep the enemy group right before your ally's turn. That way they can move off and the opponents will be to slow to catch 'em.

 

[Felon]

Well, the effect of slow in 3e seems pretty darn weak. Putting creatues to sleep is potent, but it's obviously a headache to deal with if every creature gets a save every round to wake up. I know my first house rule is going to be that sleeping minions don't get wake-up calls.